2195 replies to this topic

[ambivalent]

Congrats on embracing fasting nate - you should link some of your earlier posts to inspire others who find it pretty unconsciable to go more than 12 hours without food.

 

Regarding burning muscle and fat, you'll know if you fast longer that its definitely not fat then muscle: you'l lose plenty of muscle while still retaining fat. The consolation offered is that muscle growth tends to come back improved (Longo noted this anecdotally and suggested it seems plausible - I believe it is buried in here somewhere - also he has done a recent interview with Bowes on llama podcast where he states that the 18-6 turns out be harmful)

 

Initially, I was rather confused as to why, during the fasting cycle, given the body perceives a lack of resource and heightened need for competition, it metabolises muscle in order to conserve fat. Then it become obvious - while a muscled-down body may possess a reduced capacity to compete for resource, it'll take far longer to burn through a pound of fat than its beefed-up counterpart. So it kind of makes sense in the early stages to burn fat, since a day or so without food is unlikely to be an indicator of survivability-risk.

 

Interestingly, in case you didn't know, HGH levels sky-rocket after a fast of 16 hours or so (which perhaps indicates the likely priority at this stage) it has become popular with body builders and, if you do, this may indicate why you haven't noticed this effect.)

Edited by ambivalent, 24 July 2018 - 08:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I actually went and read the full context. Still doesn't quite confirm either way. So mitophagy doesn't happen during fasts? They seem to imply that the fusion is brief (during short periods), but they don't mention how brief.

 

 

When they say stuff like that, you have to look at their references, such as--

 

 

Mitochondrial Degradation through Autophagy—

To further verify that autophagy is responsible for ordered organelle degradation, we followed the subcellular localization of mitochondria during amino acid starvation by microscopy. We compared cells amino acid-starved for 7 and 30 h with non-starved control cells (Fig. 5). Whereas we rarely detected mitochondrial-autophagosomal colocalization after 7 h of starvation (Fig. 5, D–F), we were able to detect extensive colocalization after 30 h (Fig. 5, G–I). The same holds true for mitochondrial-lysosomal colocalization (supplemental Fig. 3, A–I). These observations are in accordance with already obtained results, highlighting that autophagy is regulated at the protein complex/organelle level and that organelles are degraded in an ordered fashion via autophagy in the lysosome.

http://www.mcponline.../7/12/2419.long

 

 

Thus if you are fasting without any protein intake, you may begin to experience mitophagy sometime during the second day (depending on what you have in your digestive tract), but if you are consuming sufficient amino acids, you probably won't.

 

This work was in vitro, so the times may not translate all that well.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 July 2018 - 08:19 PM.

[Nate-2004]

When they say stuff like that, you have to look at their references, such as--

 

 

 

Thus if you are fasting without any protein intake, you may begin to experience mitophagy sometime during the second day (depending on what you have in your digestive tract), but if you are consuming sufficient amino acids, you probably won't.

 

This work was in vitro, so the times may not translate all that well.

 

Nope no aminos thus far and I'm probably going into tomorrow at this point with it. But in that case I'd consider taking N+R on my second day but I'm worried the d-ribose might result in an insulin spike or possibly kill the ketosis or fast as a whole. I can't find any info out there on whether it would. If it didn't do that I'd take it to induce fission.

[ambivalent]

I meant to write in more detail at some point - but the source of the kidney problems I experienced and reported last year was undoubtedly large doses of N+R, NR. Some months later after making real efforts to reduce uric acid levels I had a blood test - UA reading of 0.4 I forget the metric but the acceptable range was 0.2-0.42. Blood glucose was normal but H1AC was not checked.

 

Months after the injury I had neuropathy, nerve damage to the soles of my feet, occasional gout, poorer vision and quite a lot of joint pain. I did not have these symptoms before the NR, N+R experimentation. Thankfully, these symptoms disappeared after taking NMN capsules sublingually. The difference between NR and NMN is considerable, though of course I wasn't taking NR, N+R sublingually. I still experience a bad reaction when on occasion taking LE NR (foot pain), though it seems less so sublingually.  I may have a family slight disposition with gout, which might put me closer to any threshold but it is most likely the dose. Incidentally, my probably arthritic knee is way better than pre experimentation - reports that NMN alleviates joint pain are extremely well founded in my experience. 

 

Downside to NMN I would say is methylation - increased anxiety, over-thinking. Adding creatine seemed to improve this. 

 

I would strongly recommend testing for UA levels on this protocol. The warning sign, which I ignored, was tingling extremities.

 

It will be a while before I venture back on to this, which is not to say it isn't working well for others, but I'd advise caution.

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 24 July 2018 - 10:56 PM.

[sthira]

Also, with dynamics manipulation in consideration, how should I end the fast?

There's a culture around ending the fast. I mean, if you fasted in a controlled setting they'd break your fast in a very specific manner. But they're guessing based on past experience and maybe your own blood test results. Maybe the general idea is don't want to shock the system too much by raising blood glucose too high, and then get sick, or even reverse the benefits attained by fasting. Break it gently, man, go easy, slowly, and especially go light on the high glycemic fruits, which many in the fasting community dig. I break fasts with veggie smoothies highish in fats like with avocadoes and greens, sip slowly, and that doesn't seem to shock my system post fast.

Snips

... fasting... is definitely helping with my tremors.

Sorry for editing up your writing, man, trying to find bones here. But "the truth" seems to be no one knows too much intimacy about the biochem of fasting. And you can wrap yourself around complicated chemistry ideas that seem true now but then later turn out to be wrong orb misguided. If fasting is helping with your tremors -- dig it, man, go with it -- keep exploring the fasting path regardless of the biochemistry speculations.

I totally agree fasting is a powerful intervention, and it needs way more clinical understanding.

[Turnbuckle]

 I experienced and reported last year was undoubtedly large doses of N+R, NR. 

 

 

Can you be more explicit about what you were doing with "N+R, NR"?

[ambivalent]

I documented it pretty well in this thread, around October last year and also in other NR threads. In the beginning of last year I started experimenting with large doses of NR - up to 6gms a day at times. I experienced some very positive but inconsistent effects (intermittent but significant extremity pain, especially foot but persevered). I then moved to n+r though mixed with NR at times. They were different experiences but with some overlap.  Extremity pain persisted then often went, I'm pretty sure I identified it with N+R only too - but the pain became so poor at one point I decided to quit (though days before feeling fantastic on the protocol) -  couple of days later the kidney pain broke out and I was in very bad shape. The dosing was not excessive, comparable to what you were doing. At that time one paper had come out, posted here, demonstrating d-Ribose spikes H1AC (might account for the possible nerve/capillary damage in the feet). You had hypothesised UA from ribose. Once I took cherries, symptoms improved - I could urinate almost immediately, which had been difficult .

 

I am unsure about spiking sugar H1AC, but I'm certain NR raises UA and histamine. It doesn't seem to be inconsistent to me that NR lowers H1AC long term (as many have claimed) but can cause short term spikes. Naturally, consistent higher doses may drown out long term benefits evidence at lower levels.

 

I've not touched N+R in this time, but I have on occasion taken NR and never react well to it since, so there is still damage. But with NMN I have found fabulous benefits at times, I would advise experimenting with it, because I'm quite sure it has a very different effect, but as mentioned NMN was sublingual. The effect on my knee is incredible.

 

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 24 July 2018 - 11:45 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

One of ambivalent's previous posts is here, which indicates the problem is from ribose--

 

It's pretty probable it is NR related. Accounts of extremity pain have been reported several times, in particular by me at high doses but also initially at low doses. Even now upon reintroducing low doses I've noticed the needling pains. I've reported this a couple of the NR threads here but also in the 'N+R' thread manipulating mitochondtial dynamics in the aging theories forum. If you go back a couple of months you'll find my accounts (I can't link for some reason).

 

I have two possibilities theories: increased blood sugar levels (a paper is posted in that thread showing ribose can elevate glycated haemoglobin levels) but also thanks to Turnbuckle increased uric acid levels possibly caused by ribose. The later I'm quite certain is a big part of the problem if not all of it. The easiest way to test if this is your problem is to drink/consume a lot of cherry juice/cherries or celery seed extract. The effect and relief can be quite rapid especially from concentrate.

 

I would say its a problem not to be ignored as I did. But NR is well worth finding a workaround for (imo). I will hopefully know more in a few months if I obtain some blood/urine tests.

 

 

[sthira]

Prolly ain't right thread to post general frustrations with same old shit but honestly we have nothing, e.g., I've been reading same abt slowing aging for what a decade now?:

Like: https://apple.news/A...8N0mstyjAN5oBxA

"Getting older is a fact of life—but you can turn back the clock on visible signs of aging with the right products. Problem is, the best anti-aging serums, creams, cleansers, and tools tend to be pricey, and they rarely go on sale (brands know you'll buy your favorite product when it runs out, no matter the price)."

Fuck you

When will anyone other than us and a small select group of weirdo out-of-mainstream scientists care about preventing aging related disease? Lol, such a weird question, ain't it, yet on and on we go... pretending we're doing anything

[Andey]

Nope no aminos thus far and I'm probably going into tomorrow at this point with it. But in that case I'd consider taking N+R on my second day but I'm worried the d-ribose might result in an insulin spike or possibly kill the ketosis or fast as a whole. I can't find any info out there on whether it would. If it didn't do that I'd take it to induce fission.

 

  dr Longo`s fast mimicking diet allow some carbohydrates and ribose dosage in N+R is not a huge one. 

I could somewhat speculate that ribose is one of those sugars that doesn't get converted to blood glucose by a liver (same as fructose) but generate an insulin spike that lowers BG 

http://www.bioenergy...ence 070303.pdf

 

Anecdotally my ketone levels don't move significantly after a N+R but I haven't used it during a fast, only in nutritional ketosis.

[Nate-2004]

  dr Longo`s fast mimicking diet allow some carbohydrates and ribose dosage in N+R is not a huge one. 

I could somewhat speculate that ribose is one of those sugars that doesn't get converted to blood glucose by a liver (same as fructose) but generate an insulin spike that lowers BG 

http://www.bioenergy...ence 070303.pdf

 

Anecdotally my ketone levels don't move significantly after a N+R but I haven't used it during a fast, only in nutritional ketosis.

 

This is helpful, just trying not to destroy my investment of misery lol. I'm at 64 hours now and counting. I took apigenin this morning, 100mg, not sure how bioavailable it is on an extremely empty stomach though. It might help with fission/mitophagy. I'll probably be more willing to risk it if I make it into tomorrow and Friday. At this point of the notorious 3rd day, I'm not so sharp minded, not even remotely. I feel foggy.  

[Turnbuckle]

This is helpful, just trying not to destroy my investment of misery lol. I'm at 64 hours now and counting. I took apigenin this morning, 100mg, not sure how bioavailable it is on an extremely empty stomach though. It might help with fission/mitophagy. I'll probably be more willing to risk it if I make it into tomorrow and Friday. At this point of the notorious 3rd day, I'm not so sharp minded, not even remotely. I feel foggy.  

 

Fission only increases hunger and makes a fast more difficult.

[mikela]

I'm trying to measure out 10g of Stearic Acid.  How many teaspoons or tablespoons would that be?

 

+1 on the subligual NMN.

[BigLabRat]

There's a culture around ending the fast. I mean, if you fasted in a controlled setting they'd break your fast in a very specific manner. But they're guessing based on past experience and maybe your own blood test results. Maybe the general idea is don't want to shock the system too much by raising blood glucose too high, and then get sick, or even reverse the benefits attained by fasting. Break it gently, man, go easy, slowly, and especially go light on the high glycemic fruits, which many in the fasting community dig. I break fasts with veggie smoothies highish in fats like with avocadoes and greens, sip slowly, and that doesn't seem to shock my system post fast.
 

I've broken fasts many different ways. I now do it in two stages. First, I slowly eat a couple of tablespoons of almond butter--gives you plenty of fat and protein, and is surprisingly satiating.

 

Then, a couple of hours later, I eat something more substantial. Possibly a couple of eggs,

 

-------------

 

I'd often heard recommendations of fruit or fruit juices or raw vegetables. I've found these to be disasters on an empty stomach. Who knows, maybe it depends on your gut flora.

[ambivalent]

The post of mine TB linked to was a response to one 3 places up or so where someone reported similar tingling sensations in the extremities that I'd experienced. There are several similar accounts in the experience thread, although not the norm it isn't uncommon. If I remember correctly symptoms of raised UA don't readily present themselves except at high levels. One additional point, I found that NR broke down fairly quickly as when UA and histamine levels were problematic, I would generally know within at least 30 minutes, often much shorter.

 

In addition, I should say my symptoms have showed some signs of returning at least to a lesser extent when coming off NMN, I haven't been cold turkey for more than a week, so it is, naturally, hard to surmise more than that.

 

I haven't given an MMD protocol much thought since last year, but I was meaning to ask Turnbuckle if you had any thoughts on how best to use NMN within this context? The one thing I have done is use stearic acid when I've felt brain foggy and that has seemed to work. 

 

If I may ask briefly, I don't believe there was a thread, have you noted any further success with derma-rolling/lysine. I tried it a couple of times and didn't notice too much success.

 

Finally, I think it is worth while creating and MMD experience and protocol thread - there don't seem to be that many adopters and it would be especially useful to see what people have done and settled on.  

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 26 July 2018 - 03:23 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I haven't given an MMD protocol much thought since last year, but I was meaning to ask Turnbuckle if you had any thoughts on how best to use NMN within this context? The one thing I have done is use stearic acid when I've felt brain foggy and that has seemed to work. 

 

If I may ask briefly, I don't believe there was a thread, have you noted any further success with derma-rolling/lysine. I tried it a couple of times and didn't notice too much success.

 

Finally, I think it is worth while creating and MMD experience and protocol thread - there don't seem to be that many adopters and it would be especially useful to see what people have done and settled on.  

 

I've never used NMN, but if absorbed sublingually or by gastric absorption or injection, then it will act faster than N+R and you'd want to take that into account.

 

As for derma-rolling, I gave that up after I began using the stem cell protocol, as there was no longer any need for it.

 

And as for a thread for MMD protocol users (if any), I hadn't considered it as I've gone on to other things. But if anyone wants to start one, I have no objection.

[ambivalent]

Well, I can see I have much to catch up on. Thanks for your ongoing experimentation. I quickly glanced at the stem cell protocol thread and rather made me wonder about a recent observation. 

 

I've been on NMN for a few months and have during this period intermittently dosed two or three times with C60 quite large amounts, over short periods (a few days each time). Recently I'd noticed quite an increase in hair density on my legs and it rather made me wonder if there was synergy between the two, for leg-hair regrowth is one of the few visible and enduring effects of c60 I experienced - I used to have bald shins. However, as I mentioned I've used stearic acid a couple of times and given its half life I may well have timed it with c60 - so perhaps it wasn't c60 + NMN but a basic form of your protocol. I would add though that NMN was pretty amazing on its own - the best supplement I've taken. It raised all boats, a real sense of feeling 10 years younger, the physical rejuvenation persisted but mentally I was sluggish after initially much sharper but there have been a few things I've tried to address tit with which have made a difference including SA.

 

On another note, I saw briefly some discussion about fasting and stell cells. I used to do quite a bit of dry-fasting and the one experience which stood out occurred when I undertook a 3-day dry fast followed by a 5-day dry fast a week later. During the second fast my skin was regenerating - I wouldn't say I looked different, you don't look great anyway after such a fast, but the smoothness of skin was incredible, it reminded me of being 19 and lasted for months. I've taken supplements that having a smoothing effect such HA and c60 at times, but nothing compared to this effect in softness or durability. Obviously I'm not recommending this course of action but it may add something to the stem-cell/fasting discussion. 

 

I'll look forward to trying your protocol.  

Edited by ambivalent, 26 July 2018 - 10:46 PM.

[Rocket]

Day 3 of fusion and I don't feel anything. I'm going to do fusion for 7 days and then fission for 3 or 4, and so on and so forth.

 

Does anyone feel anything during fusion? Fission? 

 

Looking for a guidepost that this is actually doing something...

[Turnbuckle]

Day 3 of fusion and I don't feel anything. I'm going to do fusion for 7 days and then fission for 3 or 4, and so on and so forth.

 

Does anyone feel anything during fusion? Fission? 

 

Looking for a guidepost that this is actually doing something...

 

 

If you don't feel anything, then you don't need to be doing it.

[Krell]

Progress report  (fit 73yro,183lb, 6ft)

I attempted the fission/fusion protocol, as described here

http://www.longecity...-28#entry843333

for 2 months,

 

I was taking the following fusion dose with my coffee 3 days per week
followed by an hour of tennis and then some weight lifting (M/T/W).

  1.5g nicotinamide (3 tab biophix),
  1.5g D-Ribose (3 tab BoostCeuticals),
  900mg LE AMPK (2 tab LE),
  100mg Fisetin (1 tab DrBest)

 

My fusion dose on Thurs/Fri/Sat was as described in the protocol.

 

I had to discontinue the protocol because my blood pressure got progressively more elevated during the fusion

days.  My blood pressure was taken during 3 doctors visits (unrelated) while I was on the protocol and all

were elevated from my normal 80/120, especially the last measurement of 181/111!  I did notice that my sleeping heart

rate that is continuously measured by my Garmin 235 watch tended to be elevated during fusion (70-80bpm vs 50-70bpm).

I did not feel any other symptoms other than the elevated heart rate. 

 

Other than the BP and HR, I can not report any significant effects of the protocol.  My weight lifting and aerobic

exercise capability that I have monitored closely over several years did not change significantly. And my tennis serve did not improve. :=(

 

 

Edited by Krell, 01 August 2018 - 09:45 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Cells get rid of damaged mitochondria naturally by swinging between fission and fusion. This protocol drives the natural process to extremes, and is for those who suspect they have damaged mitochondria that have gotten beyond the body's ability to get rid of them. For instance, those with mito damage from statin use might benefit from it. There is always a falloff in energy levels during fission, but this will be dramatic if you have a substantial population of damaged mitochondria, and as you cycle between fission and fusion repeatedly that will become less dramatic and finally barely noticeable. That's how you know you are done with it. Some might notice little difference from the beginning, and those will likely gain little from doing it. BP will likely vary, sometimes dramatically. Even when I was nearly done with it I still experienced a swing in BP between fission and fusion. Fusion was always higher, sometimes substantially higher at the beginning (which I controlled with an alpha blocker), while during fission it would sometimes drop to historic lows.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 01 August 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[Rocket]

I benched 300lbs today and not on anabolics. 2 weeks ago my max 2x press was 275 to 280. Other than starting this regimen and being in fusion for about 5 days, the only thing I have done is I have cut down carbs to lose BF %. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Tomorrow I will see if my squats are improved.

[Rocket]

Squats are up but not as dramatically as my bench. What's more is i am losing or rather have lost 5lbs in about a week. I recently cut down are carbs to lose some BF, but since starting on this regiment about a week ago weight loss really took off. From about 1lb a week to 5 pounds since starting on this about a week ago. Don't know if any of this is coincidental or mitochondrial rejuvenation.

[zorba990]

Wondering if vitamin b4 (adenine) or adenosine have a place in this protocol. I've only found one source of bulk b4 so far and it seems pricey but the dose may be low.

[Turnbuckle]

Wondering if vitamin b4 (adenine) or adenosine have a place in this protocol. I've only found one source of bulk b4 so far and it seems pricey but the dose may be low.

 

Many threads on this site are directed to group purchases of arcane, expensive, and sometimes untested chemicals. I've gone in the opposite direction and thus I didn't include it. Not that adenosine isn't interesting. If you try it, let us know how it works out.

[DeepBlue]

I appreciate your ideas and enthusiasm for sharing your knowledge and experience.  Thanks Turnbuckle.

 

I am new to the forum and most of the subjects discussed here and trying to catch up.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1- You have a few very interesting protocols. Would you recommend any order between  Alzheimer's, Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics and Stem cell self-renewal protocol  for someone with average health in their 70s with no overt Alzheimer's symptoms yet ? I think mitochondria protocol should be done before the stem cell protocol. I am not sure at all when to do Alzheimer's protocol.

 

2-  I have read some posts on fasting. My understanding so far is that fission is necessary for mitophagy. Fasting supresses fission and increases fusion and also boosts autophagy and can be combined with exercise to enhance autophagy.  I am not sure if mitophagy happens in the fusion state at all?

 

Do you see any problems with this approach ?

 

Day 1,2,3 Fission

Day 4,5    Fasting, exercise and red light therapy

Day 6,7    Fusion

Day 8,9    Normal days before repeat

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

[Turnbuckle]

I appreciate your ideas and enthusiasm for sharing your knowledge and experience.  Thanks Turnbuckle.

 

I am new to the forum and most of the subjects discussed here and trying to catch up.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1- You have a few very interesting protocols. Would you recommend any order between  Alzheimer's, Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics and Stem cell self-renewal protocol  for someone with average health in their 70s with no overt Alzheimer's symptoms yet ? I think mitochondria protocol should be done before the stem cell protocol. I am not sure at all when to do Alzheimer's protocol.

 

2-  I have read some posts on fasting. My understanding so far is that fission is necessary for mitophagy. Fasting supresses fission and increases fusion and also boosts autophagy and can be combined with exercise to enhance autophagy.  I am not sure if mitophagy happens in the fusion state at all?

 

Do you see any problems with this approach ?

 

Day 1,2,3 Fission

Day 4,5    Fasting, exercise and red light therapy

Day 6,7    Fusion

Day 8,9    Normal days before repeat

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Symptoms of AD I would treat as an emergency situation, while upgrading mitochondria can be done in a more leisurely manner. Not everyone will get AD, but checking your DNA for one or more apoe4 genes will give you a heads up. Generally your chances are around 30% or more past 85. If you have one apoe4 gene, your chances double, and if you have two you are doomed without this protocol.

 

As for defective mitochondria, you will quickly know whether you have them if you try the fission part of the fission/fusion protocol. If nothing happens, you are probably fine.

 

Fission is required for mitophagy, but as it lowers the efficiency of mitochondria, it will make you hungrier and make fasting more difficult. So I wouldn't mix them. The whole point of the red light method is to lose weight fast, so unless you are truly obese, that might be accomplished quickly.

 

The stem cell protocol is pretty dramatic, but it's only a few months old so I can't give any guarantees for the long run. I would do that last. 

[Rocket]

Turnbuckle, I've been reading (a dangerous hobby!) and fission occurs when you stop taking supplements like stearic acid for fusion. Don't ask me to quote where I read that... Is that accurate in your opinion?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, I've been reading (a dangerous hobby!) and fission occurs when you stop taking supplements like stearic acid for fusion. Don't ask me to quote where I read that... Is that accurate in your opinion?

 

Fusion isn't a permanent condition, and it wouldn't be healthy if it were.

[Nate-2004]

Published yesterday:

 

https://www.nature.c...467-018-05614-6

 

Since modern foods are unnaturally enriched in single metabolites, it is important to understand which metabolites are sensed by the human body and which are not. We previously showed that the fatty acid stearic acid (C18:0) signals via a dedicated pathway to regulate mitofusin activity and thereby mitochondrial morphology and function in cell culture. Whether this pathway is poised to sense changes in dietary intake of C18:0 in humans is not known. We show here that C18:0 ingestion rapidly and robustly causes mitochondrial fusion in people within 3 h after ingestion. C18:0 intake also causes a drop in circulating long-chain acylcarnitines, suggesting increased fatty acid beta-oxidation in vivo. This work thereby identifies C18:0 as a dietary metabolite that is sensed by our bodies to control our mitochondria. This could explain part of the epidemiological differences between C16:0 and C18:0, whereby C16:0 increases cardiovascular and cancer risk whereas C18:0 decreases both.