2503 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

Depending on age and personal medical history.

 

Then, does that mean you don't use TUDCA aside from the protocol?

Worry starts from the situation that someone who drinks infrequently may have circulating TUDCA if the half life TUDCA is long.

 

 

No, I didn't say that. I use TUDCA on occasion with silymarin for liver health. As for TUDCA, this worry about alcohol comes from an in vitro study where a concentration of 100-200 mM ethanol was used. This concentration of ethanol would cause death in most people with or without TUDCA. And again, it's not critical to the protocol, so feel free to dispense with it.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 July 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[Phoebus]

 I've previously speculated that C60 might be the right size to block those pores, and in fact there are other nanoparticles (such as gold and silver) that can stimulate stem cells, though the mechanism has not been recognized. 

 

This intrigues me as I swear I had read a study about silver stimulating SC production years ago but when i looked recently I could not find anything like that 

 

Do you have any more info on this? 

 

They are now using silver infused bandages to treat burn victims as it quickens healing process. The reasoning of course is that it is anti bacterial, but I wonder if there is a small amount of SC stimulating actiion going on there? 

[Turnbuckle]

This intrigues me as I swear I had read a study about silver stimulating SC production years ago but when i looked recently I could not find anything like that 

 

Do you have any more info on this? 

 

They are now using silver infused bandages to treat burn victims as it quickens healing process. The reasoning of course is that it is anti bacterial, but I wonder if there is a small amount of SC stimulating actiion going on there? 

 

Silver nanoparticles promote osteogenesis of mesenchymal stem cells and improve bone fracture healing in osteogenesis mechanism mouse model.

 

Gold nanoparticle size and shape influence on osteogenesis of mesenchymal stem cells.

[Andey]

I would like to find the half life of TUDCA, but the reference is not clear.

In the original poster's protocol, is TUDCA usage singular? One time usage of TUDCA during this protocol?

 

Toxicity of UDCA paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19585548

 

The caution about liver burden is needed. Drinking alcohol after TUDCA supplement can worsen the toxicity of alcohol.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14741743

 

  I believe that data on UDCA/TUDCA is indeed a bit mixed in a sense that it's not unequivocally good in all range of dosages and applications.

Probably its an another U shape curve drug, and 2250mg for 75kg person is quite a big dosage compared to 300-600mg that people take as a supplement.

Its definitely beneficial if somebody wants to increase bile flow and treat or prevent gallstones.

As for supplement type use, I like this study

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19585548

where it has a synergy with ALA

[Turnbuckle]

I submitted a sample for epigenetic age measurement before starting this protocol, and a second one about a month ago. The first test was within a few months of my actual age, while the second showed an 11 year decline. More detains can be found in this post.

[orion22]

I submitted a sample for epigenetic age measurement before starting this protocol, and a second one about a month ago. The first test was within a few months of my actual age, while the second showed an 11 year decline. More detains can be found in this post.

just to be 100% clear the first test is before ever using c60 or before using c60+stearic and if so how much time did you use c60 before the first without the stearic acid 

[orion22]

after a google search i see EDARADD Gene function is hair nail and teeth that means you gotten 0 results from the c60 protocol same results you could get with makeup a wig and a trip to the dentist 

Edited by orion22, 28 July 2018 - 07:23 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

after a google search i see EDARADD Gene function is hair nail and teeth that means you gotten 0 results from the c60 protocol same results you could get with makeup a wig and a trip to the dentist 

 

 

If one gene does this, expect thousands to behave similarly. Osiris picked out three that seem well correlated with age.

 

From their FAQs--

 

Many of these epigenetic changes appear random, but some regions of DNA experience consistent and predictable epigenetic changes that progress with age like the ticking of a clock. Our service looks specifically at several of these areas of a person’s DNA and uses the observed epigenetic changes to predict their age.

https://www.osirisgr...q.php#question1

 

 

Beyond that, Osiris examines only one one cell type. Other cell types will display different patterns of de-aging in response to stem cell replacement of senescent cells, depending on the portions of stem cell DNA that receives de novo methylation. Totipotent stem cells would produce the biggest de-aging effect as they are the least methylated, but they only exist early on in the embryo. Next are pluripotent SCs, and then regular adult stem cells.

 

I believe that the rise in epigenetic age found in two genes may be due to their not being part of the SC DNA subject to de novo methylation, and to my use of telomerase stimulants in the protocol. As the latter can rescue senescent cells, I will dispense with them in the future, while increasing senescent cell clearance. 

 

For other benefits I've found, see posts #201 and #214.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 July 2018 - 09:15 AM.

[Blueflash]

Thats awesome news! Can't say i'm too surprised since trying it myself 5 times minus the astragalus , threonine and potassium nitrate. Simply amazing. Very vivid dream the first time, and dream every night ever since. Great sense of well-being and a lot less brain fog. The gym? Whole next level. Walked out of the gym so swole yesterday I felt like everybody was looking at me. I'm 54. Thanks Turnbuckle!

[boylan]

Thats awesome news! Can't say i'm too surprised since trying it myself 5 times minus the astragalus , threonine and potassium nitrate. Simply amazing. Very vivid dream the first time, and dream every night ever since. Great sense of well-being and a lot less brain fog. The gym? Whole next level. Walked out of the gym so swole yesterday I felt like everybody was looking at me. I'm 54. Thanks Turnbuckle!

 

Blueflash,

 

What is your current protocol? I'll be starting mine next week. I'm including Astragalus root extract.

[Blueflash]

Boylan, i'm using the latest version of the protocol  (post 326)    https://www.longecit...-11#entry853583

[BelieveWeDoBetterTogether]

Boylan, i'm using the latest version of the protocol  (post 326)    https://www.longecit...-11#entry853583

 

Blueflash,

Are you using the protocol below without C60 and without the three ingredients below? Any reason why you went without these ingredients and without C60? Sounds like you are going to the gym to lift weights instead of running/hiking.

 

Satellite cell self-renewal, without C60

 

Rationale: This protocol is based on the hypothesis that fusion promotes symmetric division of satellite cells as it does with other stem cells, while nitic oxide is a unique signal for proliferation of satellite cells. C60 may not add anything in this case, and may even interfere. Note that the protocol is directed to increasing the pool of satellite cells and not directly creating muscle tissue.

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10g (in hot chocolate or brownie)

Cycloastragenol — 10 mg

 

 

Time 2:00 —

 

L‑Carnitine fumarate – 1 g

 

 

Time 2:30-4:00 —

Running/hiking on wilderness trails (or other exercise)

Edited by BelieveWeDoBetterTogether, 28 July 2018 - 10:46 PM.

[Graviton]

Some concern about potassium nitrate,

 

Under some acidic condition, nitrate can convert to nitrosamine which is carcinogenic. This is usually argued in processed meat, which use curing process to prevent oxidation.

 

In the original protocol, potassium nitrate seems to be concerning.

Edited by Graviton, 29 July 2018 - 02:41 AM.

[Blueflash]

"Blueflash,

Are you using the protocol below without C60 and without the three ingredients below? Any reason why you went without these ingredients and without C60? Sounds like you are going to the gym to lift weights instead of running/hiking."

 

I'm using the C60 protocol. Only left some supps out because I  don't have them all yet. I get to the gym whenever I can, so not necessarily in conjunction with the protocol. 

[hsibai]

Turnbuckle,

Thanks for sharing your experience so far.

Any thoughts on combining the protocol below with the Fusion/Biogenesis protocol described in the "Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics" thread?

I’ve tried combining the following protocols, but ultimately I decided they probably work better separately. As usual, see my profile page for a link to the latest protocol updates. These change according to my own experience with them. Results so far can be found in posts 201, 206, and the top of post 214.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Stem cell self-renewal, with C60

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10g (in hot chocolate or brownie)

Cycloastragenol — 10 mg

and/or Astragalus root extract powder — 5 g

 

Time 2:00 —

TUDCA — 500 mg

Liposomal glutathione — 500 mg

 

Time 2:30 —

Threonine – 10 g

C60 — 3 mg (in EVOO or MCT oil)

 

 

 

[orion22]

what do you think of using a bigger dose of c60 now?

[Turnbuckle]

After getting back my epigenetic results, I suspect I've been doing a couple of things backwards--

 

First, I should have been using the senescent cell clearance once a week and instead of every couple of months, and second, I shouldn't have been using the "cyclostrageol and/or astragalus powder" every time, but only once every couple of months. These telomerase stimulants appear to be rescuing senescent cells, the opposite of what I want. 

 

So even though two data points on three genes is not much to go on, I'm revising the protocol (from post #326)-- 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

A: Stem cell self-renewal, with C60

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10g (in hot chocolate or brownie*)

 

Time 2:00 —

TUDCA — 500 mg

Liposomal glutathione — 500 mg

 

Time 2:30 —

Threonine – 10 g

C60 — 3 mg (in EVOO or MCT oil)

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

B: Satellite cell self-renewal, without C60

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10g (in hot chocolate or brownie*)

 

Time 2:00 —

Potassium nitrate — 500 mg

L‑Carnitine fumarate – 1 g

Threonine – 10 g

 

Time 2:30-4:00 —

Whatever exercise you prefer

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

C: Senescent cell clearance (see this post)

• apigenin — 100 mg

• IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate) — 2 g

• resveratrol (synthetic) — 200 mg 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

As a weekly schedule I'm doing A or B (or some mix like ABB or ABA) three days in a row, then a blank day, then C. After a couple of months I'll get another epigenetic test. (Note that only A and C will affect the test results, as cells from the cheek/gums used by Osiris Green to measure epigenetic age should not be affected by B, which only affects muscle cells).

 

 

*For hot chocolate, I use 10 g food-grade stearic acid, a like amount of lecithin, Hershey's unsweetened cocoa, and low cal brown sugar, stirring the dry powders before adding milk and microwaving. Lecithin is absolutely required for dispersion in hot chocolate, but not for brownies. Using a box mix that calls for 2/3 cups of oil, I cut that back to 2 tablespoons and add 120 grams of stearic acid flakes, leaving the rest of the recipe unchanged. Then I mix at room temp using a power mixer, baking according to directions, dividing it 3x4 and freezing most of it for later use. 15-20 seconds in the microwave will thaw one brownie.

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 31 July 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[hsibai]

 

As a weekly schedule I'm doing A or B (or some mix like ABB or ABA) three days in a row, then a blank day, then C. After a couple of months I'll get another epigenetic test. (Note that only A and C will affect the test results, as cells from the cheek/gums used by Osiris Green to measure epigenetic age should not be affected by B, which only affects muscle cells).

 

Is it necessary to take Stearic Acid on the third day of ABB or ABA given its long half life?

[Turnbuckle]

Is it necessary to take Stearic Acid on the third day of ABB or ABA given its long half life?

 

 

I do. 24 hours is more than 2 half lives, reducing the level of stearic acid to about 20%.

 

And as to orion22's question, you can try more than 3 mg C60, but I've never seen more being better with C60. From the anti-oxidant aspect, certainly, but for blocking UCP pores? Once you get them saturated, more can't do anything except possibly screw things up.

[Empiricus]

C60 — 3 mg (in EVOO or MCT oil)

 

Considering cooking up a new batch of c60 but without any olive constituents, as I seem to be allergic to them to some extent. 

 

Does it make sense to dissolve c60 in MCT without adding any olive phenols? Is that, in fact, the option suggested (or is the addition of olive extract to the MCT implied)? 

 

 

Edited by Empiricus, 31 July 2018 - 12:36 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

C60 — 3 mg (in EVOO or MCT oil)

 

Considering cooking up a new batch of c60 but without any olive constituents, as I seem to be allergic to them to some extent. 

 

Does it make sense to dissolve c60 in MCT without adding any olive phenols? Is that, in fact, the option suggested (or is the addition of olive extract to the MCT implied)? 

 

If C60 is blocking UCP pores, then that is likely dependent on its size and spherical geometry and not on any adducts. MCT makes a beautiful purple color, but it is an aggressive oil that can dissolve many plastics--not only containers but the supports for filters, assuming you filter it. Another oil that should work well is high oleic sunflower oil.

[Kentavr]

at the moment I'm experimenting with water SVETLA, which is a fullerenol dissolved in water (attention is not fullerene!).

Description of water can be seen here:

 

http://svetla.com/ru/

 

Fullerenols, most likely, can also "stop a hole" pores

Moreover, fullerenol itself will be an antioxidant, since it contains a large number of OH-groups

 

I think it's safer. 

This water is sold in our pharmacies in Moscow.

 

In addition, I'm going to buy stearic acid.

Edited by Kentavr, 31 July 2018 - 05:16 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

I think it's safer. 

 

 

 

They are not equivalent. Fullerenols are hydrophilic while fullerenes are hydrophobic, resulting in different effects on mito mebranes. While fullerene C60 appears to reduce the loss of H+, at least one fullerenol appears to increase it, resulting in toxicity--

 

Mitochondrial dysfunction is considered as a crucial mechanism of nanomaterial toxicity. Herein, we investigated the effects of polyhydroxylated fullerene (C60(OH)44, fullerenol), a model carbon-based nanomaterial with high water solubility, on isolated mitochondria. Our study demonstrated that fullerenol enhanced the permeabilization of mitochondrial inner membrane to H(+) and K(+) and induced mitochondrial permeability transition (MPT). The fullerenol-induced swelling was dose-dependent and could be effectively inhibited by MPT inhibitors such as cyclosporin A (CsA), adenosine diphosphate (ADP), ruthenium red (RR) and ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). After treating the mitochondria with fullerenol, the mitochondrial membrane potential (MMP) was found collapsed in a concentration-independent manner. The fluorescence anisotropy of hematoporphyrin (HP) changed significantly with the addition of fullerenol, while that of 1,6-diphenyl-hexatriene (DPH) changed slightly. Moreover, a decrease of respiration state 3 and increase of respiration state 4 were observed when mitochondria were energized with complex II substrate succinate. The results of transmission electron microscopy (TEM) provided direct evidence that fullerenol damaged the mitochondrial ultrastructure. The investigations can provide comprehensive information to elucidate the possible toxic mechanism of fullerenols at subcellular level.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26348144

 

[QuestforLife]

Anyone tried MitoQ with this protocol?

Re: epigenetic age results, unfortuantely myDNAge have told me I won't have my results till early Sept. It's frustrating but it's a comprehensive test looking at hundreds of methylation sites, so will add something to Turnbuckle's data.

Anyone else doing this protocol sent off for an epigenetic age test?

[Turnbuckle]

MitoQ may have the same problem as fullerenols--

 

Here, using a live imaging approach, and both in vitro and ex vivo models, we show that MitoQ induces rapid swelling and depolarization of mitochondria...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5880956/

 

 

[QuestforLife]

Whoah, so MitoQ can puncture the inner membrane, that's unexpected.

As they're crediting the alkyl chain this will also affect SkQ1.

[Graviton]

I do. 24 hours is more than 2 half lives, reducing the level of stearic acid to about 20%.

 

And as to orion22's question, you can try more than 3 mg C60, but I've never seen more being better with C60. From the anti-oxidant aspect, certainly, but for blocking UCP pores? Once you get them saturated, more can't do anything except possibly screw things up.

How do you know C60 is saturated in cells? no-data available

Baati's original study uses large amount of intermittent dosage, and considering its long half life, I am not sure why you said that small dosage over successive days doesn't over-saturate C60 in cells.

 

I wouldn't say large dosage like that, because it gives some uncertainty to human, but 3mg for successive 3~4 times and 12mg once makes a difference?

 

In other words, if you take stearic acid 3~4 days after one dosage of 12mg of C60, or if you take 3mg of C60 and stearic acid for successive 3~4 days, what do you think about the difference? If C60 half life is smaller, then it would be important to take something in a timely manner, but for such kind of long half life drug(including Tmax), the significance relatively decreases.

 

Remembering various organs C60 amount over time, it increases as dosage period time passed, and as far as I remember, I don't find which point it becomes saturated(If I am wrong or the source is not right, please let me know).

 

I am not talking about crazy large dosage, but relatively higher dosage like 10~15mg

 

 

Edited by Graviton, 01 August 2018 - 04:11 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

I am not talking about crazy large dosage, but relatively higher dosage like 10~15mg

 

 

Try it.

[ambivalent]

I'm pretty sure I recall mentioned possibly by kmoody, that the molecule can hang around for weeks in the mitochondria. Unfortunately, I can't find the post, but I'm sure it was discussed several times, by others too.

 

On the subject of stem cell depletion. I was initially quite worried when, I believe it was you who initially speculated the possibility of stem cell depletion, of something of a shorter lived Dorian Gray effect. But there are long term users, dosing high, who have plateaued but without any spectacular drop-off. If c60 relentlessly triggered stem-cells we'd expect to witness something of a boom then bust, but it isn't not been reported by from long term users. Could there not be some homeostatic or self-regulatory response, to limit the availability of stem cells once the stem cell bank appears to be at risk of  running down? I dosed quite high in short bursts, months apart and consistently gained an initial response, which wasn't there when dosing at more regular intervals. There's is also the experience of Sensei and I believe some others to consider who received remarkable benefits at high doses - a threshold seemed to be reached where some quite astounding effects occurred, unfortunately there has been no feedback for some time on his second attempt on his high-dose protocol.

 

I wonder also, TB, if you've tried this protocol with your dogs, if they're still with us. I seem to recall there was a very positive response initially from c60, then 18 months later no effect. Maybe hav should try out this protocol to his cat who has been on the stuff for 5 years or more :-)

 

I dosed a 100 ml bottle over three days last weekend and experienced no adverse effects along with stearic acid* and some elements of your protocol. I took the steric neat or with water, but no heating involved. I've made some observations but, naturally, I'll wait longer before reporting to be certain of the effects. I will probably take stearic acid for a few more days with no c60.

 

I may decide to reduce the dosage of c60 but the dosing recommended by your protocol is quite low and would result in a bottle lasting months, are there any concerns with multiple refreezing?

 

Excellent results and as always fantastic work TB. Thanks

 

* higher dose too, but not scaled to c60oo increase.

Edited by ambivalent, 01 August 2018 - 12:47 PM.

[lost69]

i used mitoq on this protocol and maybe i should stop it.the only difference using mitoq with stemcell renewal is a lower BP while no effect on BP when done without mitoq

 

Turnbuckle:

since it is quite expensive do you think it is best to avoid mitoQ or PQQ on your protocol?

 

i also use skq1 drops and they improve my vision so i think i ll keep this anyway