2503 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

 

It is funny how aging seems to speed up, the older we get.

 

 

It does speed up. At a certain age it becomes a crisis. This is due to the depletion of stem cells that occurs prior to massive numbers of cells reaching senescence. This aging crisis is not inevitable, but something that can be treated holistically, rather than treating the myriad symptoms that all come from one cause. Treating the symptoms is hopeless, but the medial establishment rakes in most of its money from it.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 September 2020 - 09:17 AM.

[OlderThanThou2]

Wouldn't it work to just cause the fission regularily to clean up the bad mtDNA? Say doing your mitochondria regeneration protocol once a month or something, and have a high level of fusion the rest of the time with stearic acid? Stearic acid would have to come from a source that contains the minimum of palmitic acid, if not pure SA, otherwise it might not be too healthy.

[Turnbuckle]

Wouldn't it work to just cause the fission regularily to clean up the bad mtDNA? Say doing your mitochondria regeneration protocol once a month or something, and have a high level of fusion the rest of the time with stearic acid? Stearic acid would have to come from a source that contains the minimum of palmitic acid, if not pure SA, otherwise it might not be too healthy.

 

 

Try it and see what happens. While stearic acid is rather benign and long term toxicity seems to be less than many other fatty acids, a constant state of fusion might prevent stem cells from differentiating to replace dying cells, in which case any excess will be recycled and wasted. 

 

Palmitic acid does not contribute to fusion and raises CV disease risk. So if you're going to experiment this way, I'd definitely look to triglycerides that combine stearic acid with something better than palmitic. Oleic, for instance. See post 1731, where C16:0 is palmitic, C18:0 is stearic, and C18:1 is oleic. And if you reduce the melting point to body temperature or below, the problems with absorption are eliminated. You could eat it by the spoonful and not cook it into anything. Mango butter melts at about 86° F, while food grade stearic acid melts at about 157° F.

[OlderThanThou2]

I am waiting for a reply from the company that makes the stearic acid I was talking about to know the extraction method. They already told me it was food grade. If it's good I'll buy it and I'll take 5g per day besides low fat cocoa powder. If it turns out I don't want to take it I'll go for mango butter.

 

Perhaps it would make sense to try to increase the number of stem cells for some time with fusion, to perhaps resplenish their number to the level we had at younger age, then return to a normal diet. Perhaps one year of fusion then repeat every 5 years. Do you think it would have any chance of working?

[aribadabar]

Perhaps it would make sense to try to increase the number of stem cells for some time with fusion, to perhaps resplenish their number to the level we had at younger age, then return to a normal diet. Perhaps one year of fusion then repeat every 5 years. Do you think it would have any chance of working?

 

The mitochondrial dynamics require much shorter intervals thus the idea of a couple of DAYS every week. Keeping the body only in one of the states constantly for a year is unhealthy and counterproductive. Don't do it.
 

[mister_blue]

I think this is the most interesting thread on the entire internet. Anyone here who is below 40 has ever tried this geriatric protocol ?

[thenewwildone]

I think this is the most interesting thread on the entire internet. Anyone here who is below 40 has ever tried this geriatric protocol ?

I am and no change so far. Been doing it for a couple months, once a month.

[OlderThanThou2]

The mitochondrial dynamics require much shorter intervals thus the idea of a couple of DAYS every week. Keeping the body only in one of the states constantly for a year is unhealthy and counterproductive. Don't do it.
 

 

Ok, I won't do it. Thanks.

[eighthman]

https://www.fightagi...that-of-humans/

 

Further confirmation of epigenetic clock general accuracy as shown in chimps.  Good to know we're heading in the right direction.

[yz69]

How does akg reduce epigenetic age actually?

 

Just watched Brian Kennedy's presentation at ARDD2020  https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

 

at 8:00 mark, he said that oral intake of akg doesn't get into cells, however, akg increases RBC's GSH level

 

 akg-gsh.png   669.76KB   2 downloads

 

If this is true, how can we use it in the C60 stem cell protocol? 

[Turnbuckle]

How does akg reduce epigenetic age actually?

 

Just watched Brian Kennedy's presentation at ARDD2020  https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

 

at 8:00 mark, he said that oral intake of akg doesn't get into cells, however, akg increases RBC's GSH level

 

akg-gsh.png

 

If this is true, how can we use it in the C60 stem cell protocol? 

 

There are several ways supplements can lower epigenetic age. Apart from increasing stem cell numbers and/or eliminating senescent cells, they might modulate the methylation of DNA. For instance, they might  increase the level of methyltransferase, which would increase the fidelity of epigenetic programing of new somatic cells, or they might enhance oxidases that demethylate DNA and set epigenetic programing back to near zero. Some of these oxidases are dependent on alpha-ketoglutarate.

 

α-Ketoglutarate is an important metabolic intermediate that acts as a cofactor for several chromatin-modifying enzymes, including histone demethylases and the Tet family of enzymes that are involved in DNA demethylation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6462505/

 

 

 

So if AKG has that latter activity, there should be some add-on effect, whether taken with C60 or separately.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 03 October 2020 - 05:56 PM.

[yz69]

But what Brian Kennedy said was akg didn't make it out of the liver. So there's no akg in cells after taking oral akg, however, the glutathione level in RBC is increased 1h after oral akg supplement.

 

Now the question becomes, how increased RBC glutathione level reduced epigenetic age?

[Turnbuckle]

But what Brian Kennedy said was akg didn't make it out of the liver. So there's no akg in cells after taking oral akg, however, the glutathione level in RBC is increased 1h after oral akg supplement.

 

Now the question becomes, how increased RBC glutathione level reduced epigenetic age?

 

 

He doesn't actually say that. He says that AKG doesn't get across cell membranes easily, and doesn't get in at a very high level. Which doesn't mean they won't work, but salts and esters may work better.

 

However, native AKG does not easily penetrate into cells; therefore, to increase the effectiveness of its function, tests were carried out using cell-permeating AKG derivatives, i.e. AKG esters with increased hydrophobicity—octyl-AKG and 1-trifluoromethyl benzyl-AKG (converted by cytoplasmic esterases to AKG). 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5274648/

 

 

There is evidence that combining AKG with ornithine is synergistic, though the methylation aspect was not examined--

 

These data provide evidence that the combination of ORN and aKG modifies amino acid metabolism in a way which is not observed when they are administered separately.

https://pubmed.ncbi....ih.gov/2407764/

 

 

 

See Fig. 1, in particular. As for RBC's, they don't have nuclear DNA.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 03 October 2020 - 07:28 PM.

[yz69]

Since akg raises RBC glutathione level, should we avoid taking akg on fission/senolytic days?

[userCK]

Can somebody recommend DNA age test that's cheap? @Turnbuckle - what do you use?

[OlderThanThou2]

This article states that AKG decreases 10 fold between age 40 and 80:

https://www.biorxiv....9157v1.full.pdf

 

Interestingly, in humans plasma AKG levels decline 10 folds between the ages of 40 and 80

 

Does that mean that the methylation clock is more or less linear under age 40 and very nonlinear after? And that relatively young individuals should not worry about DNA methylation too much?

 

Also the company that makes Rejuvant has conducted a pilot study on 17 individuals. The result can be seen at about 2/3 of the page here:

https://www.rejuvant.com/Home

 

Some people seem to do much better than others, what would be the best guess to explain that? Would it have something to do with age? Would young participants benefit much more for the dosage used in the study? Old people would require much more. Or would it be the reverse for whatever reason?

[mister_blue]

When I see those studies that show 8 years reduction of biolooage I wonder: did it reverse aging or did it perform better at the markets we look at for aging ?

[userCK]

@Turnbuckle - I've another question but I understand it may require a long-form answer so instead of burdening you with that, I'd be happy if you could provide link to some literature I could read.

 

As you know, Finasteride/Accutane have shown to cause epigenetic modifications to DNA. It is unclear to which genes other than srd5a1 /srd5a2. My guess is it also downregulates other genes like the ones responsible for producing Androgen Receptors in the brain. 

 

As far as I know, there is no technology that allows us to selectively erase this epigenetic methylation markers. So, my questions are:

 

1. Stem Cell and Mito fission/fusion protocols - is it possible that (with luck) they might also end-up demethylating genes downregulated by Finasteride/Accutane or is that impossible? I mean, we don't have a way to target but if I keep de-methylating then at some point it should reverse methylation caused by Finasteride/Accutane as well, right?

 

2. Butyrates are known to demethylate. Body produces butyrate in fasting and ketogenic states. Is it possible that fasting/keto diet might speed up demethylation?

 

3. Our genes are constantly being methylated based on normal environment stressors. So, to reverse methylation caused by Finasteride/Accutane over 5 years ago, it seems to me that I'd have to find a way to de-methylate FASTER than normal methylation that is constantly occurring. I need to do undo the methylation that is happening daily anyway and then somehow also undo the methylation 5 years ago! But then demthylation can not be targeted so it is possible that I get lucky the first time I follow your protocol and it de-methylates Accutane/Finasteride markers?

 

Is there any book you know of that'd be accessible to someone like me (with little background in bio/chem) where I can read about epigentics, targeted erasure of epigenetic markers?

 

4. According to this study: https://onlinelibrar...1111/acel.13028 - HGH (0.015mg/kg) + DHEA (50mg) + Metaformin (500mg) for 9 months led to reversal of biological age by 2 years. However, it seems to me that the Stem Cell and Mito Fission/Fusion protocol accomplishes the same thing for pennies! Am I right or are these two different things?

 

 

 

Edited by userCK, 11 October 2020 - 04:08 AM.

[OlderThanThou2]

When I see those studies that show 8 years reduction of biolooage I wonder: did it reverse aging or did it perform better at the markets we look at for aging ?

 

Probably a methylation marker since it is an AKG product. Maybe they've included other things who knows. When we get the full study we'll have more details, and maybe we'll have the markers evolution with time. If the reversal seems to be continuing at the end of the study duration perhaps more than 8 years rejuvenation can be obtained.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

4. According to this study: https://onlinelibrar...1111/acel.13028 - HGH (0.015mg/kg) + DHEA (50mg) + Metaformin (500mg) for 9 months led to reversal of biological age by 2 years. However, it seems to me that the Stem Cell and Mito Fission/Fusion protocol accomplishes the same thing for pennies! Am I right or are these two different things?

 

 

The Stem Cell and Mito Fission/Fusion protocols are different things. One is directed to improving mitochondria quality, which boils down to removing defective mtDNA loops by exposing them to the inbuilt quality control processes of cells. The other is directed to restoring depleted stem cell populations and then encouraging senescent cells to use their inbuilt suicide programs so they can be replaced by those stem cells. As new somatic cells freshly minted from stem cells will have de novo methylation, this will lower adverse methylation from all sources -- random and those caused by drug use. 

 

HGH stimulates stem cells, and so likely the linked paper is seeing the same sort of effect.

[userCK]

The Stem Cell and Mito Fission/Fusion protocols are different things. One is directed to improving mitochondria quality, which boils down to removing defective mtDNA loops by exposing them to the inbuilt quality control processes of cells. The other is directed to restoring depleted stem cell populations and then encouraging senescent cells to use their inbuilt suicide programs so they can be replaced by those stem cells. As new somatic cells freshly minted from stem cells will have de novo methylation, this will lower adverse methylation from all sources -- random and those caused by drug use. 

 

HGH stimulates stem cells, and so likely the linked paper is seeing the same sort of effect.

Hi - I meant HGH + Metaformin + DHEA vs your Stem Cell Protocol. They both seem to be doing the same thing, except yours seem to do it more rapidly at much cheaper price!  Correct?

 

Let's say we've some genes that pre-dispose us to cancer. But those genes are methylated or turned off or not-expressed (I think all three mean the same thing), then wouldnt the stem cell protocol erase those methylation and now you might accidentally turn-on cancer causing genes?

[Turnbuckle]

Hi - I meant HGH + Metaformin + DHEA vs your Stem Cell Protocol. They both seem to be doing the same thing, except yours seem to do it more rapidly at much cheaper price!  Correct?

 

Let's say we've some genes that pre-dispose us to cancer. But those genes are methylated or turned off or not-expressed (I think all three mean the same thing), then wouldnt the stem cell protocol erase those methylation and now you might accidentally turn-on cancer causing genes?

 

 

The protocol enhances the natural stem cell pools, thus allowing them to replace aged out somatic cells in a more youthful manner. It does not reprogram old cells.

[Turnbuckle]

This is an update on my experiment using telomeric shortening. My hypothesis (see post 1206) was that shorter telomeres would accelerate the replacement of cells and thereby lower epigenetic age. A couple of years ago I tried the reverse, and as it rapidly increased epigenetic age, going the other way seemed reasonable. My first result showed an uptick in epigenetic age with cinnamon powder, and the second showed another uptick using cinnamaldehyde and eugenol that was larger than the first one. So it appears that the hypothesis is wrong and telomeres should be left alone. 

 

Update on my epigenetic age.

The last 5 tests from TruMe --

 

Date      Epigenetic age - Chronological age, years

02/2018.... +0.5 (Baseline before treatments)

11/2019.... -13.0

02/2020.... -14.2

04/2020.... -14.5

06/2020.... -13.0 (+ cinnamon powder)

08/2020.... -11.3 (+ cinnamaldehyde & eugenol)

 

I had already discontinued the experiment with telomere shortening after the first result, but TruMe is now taking 8 weeks to report results, so I had already done the second run and wasn't expecting it to be any better. As you can see, it wasn't.

 

I'm now experimenting with combining the protocol with Arginine AKG. See posts 1391 and 1277. A TruMe test is on order, though I'm not expecting a result until late December.

 

 

[QuestforLife]

I had already discontinued the experiment with telomere shortening after the first result, but TruMe is now taking 8 weeks to report results, so I had already done the second run and wasn't expecting it to be any better. As you can see, it wasn't.

 

I'm now experimenting with combining the protocol with Arginine AKG. See posts 1391 and 1277. A TruMe test is on order, though I'm not expecting a result until late December.

 

I don't know what is going on with TruMe. My sample in June was done in 10 days. My Sept sample is at 41 days and counting. Their website is also down. 

[ambivalent]

I believe I provided before a link demonstrating fusion (in mice) occurs during fasting and it is also known that fasting causes a huge spike in HGH production, which is why the 16-8 is popular amongst some bodybuilders. I wonder if it would provide an alternative to the stearic acid segment of the protocol. 

 

Also I've been reading James Nestor's somewhat ground breaking book Breath. In the video below he mentions using a retainer called homeobloc which stimulates stem cell production to generate bone and so more facial mass. And I must say he does have good bone structure.  

 

[ambivalent]

Bob Thomason, the regular c60 taker has posted on YT again after a pre-covid hiatus and well for c60 after nigh on 3 years. He has been given a steer to this thread, hopefully he will pursue it. It could be quite an open validation of this protocol in one year's time.  

 

 

[thedarkbobo]

Hello again, 32 y old now, I have been taking various  healthy stuff including C60-OO for days on and off few years back(I guess around 2l?), I am still alive and well.I have posted what I have noticed back then.

Stirring a 0,5l batch now due to covid...doing all I can to possibly survive it. There is lack of data of course, and I am waiting for ivermectin to arrive (2-3 weeks) since in my country it's not really available and seems to be helpful...

I will need to re read your current protocol and adjust myself again a bit to it. Thanks

Edited by thedarkbobo, 26 October 2020 - 12:43 PM.

[JamesPaul]

This site offers 90% food grade stearic acid, or so it says, anyway.  I'm still absorbing the large volume of information on this thread (thank you all, especially Turnbuckle!), so maybe someone has posted something better that is available to ordinary human beings (not medical research companies), but I haven't found it yet.

 

https://fireinabottl...ement-products/

 

An excerpt from near the bottom of the page:

"By popular demand, we are now also offering 13 Oz bags of 90% pure stearic acid for the DIY crowd. Stearic acid is as hard as candle wax, so you have to blend it into softer fats so that you can absorb it. Ghee and coconut oil have been the most popular options for people to try. Personally I prefer the ghee due to vitamin and butyrate content.

"Since releasing The Croissant Diet posts the most common question I’ve gotten is where can I buy a reasonable quantity of high purity, food grade stearic acid. Unfortunately the answer was nowhere! Until now. We have purchased a wholesale quantity of the highest purity stearic acid available and are having it repackaged in a convenient offering size. The high purity stuff isn’t cheap, but we think it’s worth it!"

[eighthman]

In reading the latest Life Extension magazine, I noticed that they said that Folic acid can reduce epigenetic age.

 

So, I wondered if this  supplement should be included in this regimen.

[Turnbuckle]

This site offers 90% food grade stearic acid, or so it says, anyway.  I'm still absorbing the large volume of information on this thread (thank you all, especially Turnbuckle!), so maybe someone has posted something better that is available to ordinary human beings (not medical research companies), but I haven't found it yet.

 

 

 

 

This ground has been plowed many times over the years. Food grade stearic acid is never 90% stearic moieties. It is a triglyceride with 40-60% stearic acid, with the balance mostly palmitic acid. There are other options, such as glycerol monostearate (for those without hypertension) and various vegetable butters (all triglycerides). These are rather more bioavailable than food grade stearic acid as they have lower melting points -- see post #1371. Mango butter is a good choice. It has a melting point below body temperature, doesn't taste too funky, and its other FA is mostly oleic acid, which is healthy.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 05 November 2020 - 11:54 PM.