2503 replies to this topic

[coinperson]

I apologize in advance, I translate the tactic with the help of Google translator. For this reason, there may be ridiculous typos. I will try to fix them as much as possible. More importantly, what information I give in general. 

 

Thank you.  I will read over and contemplate what you have written.

[Turnbuckle]

 

Time 3:00 — 9:00 am day 1

• Sulforaphane — 100 mg

• Brown Mustard Seed — 500 mg

• Liposomal glutathione — 1 g

• SAM-e — 500 mg

• Resveratrol, 50% Trans — 1g

• AAKG  — 2g

 

 

 

As I've noted before, telomerase enhancers can prevent TACs and somatic cells from aging out, and block replacement. New stem cells are then not utilized and are recycled. My own initial results were completely reversed when I began adding astragalus extract to my formulation, and it took a year to get it back. You are taking a lot of resveratrol, which is a known telomerase promoter.

 

Resveratrol-induced augmentation of telomerase activity delays senescence of endothelial progenitor cells

Resveratrol dose-dependently inhibited the onset of EPC senescence in culture. Resveratrol also significantly increased telomerase activity.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/22340406/

 

 

I no longer use astragalus except very sparingly, and my experience with resveratrol years ago as a stand-alone supplement was that it nearly crippled me. Which makes sense if it is preventing replacement of aging cells. I recommend using telomerase promoters with the protocol in small amounts and only once in a great while. While they may be helpful in preventing aging out of stem cells, they are a double edged sword.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 February 2022 - 12:11 PM.

[Kentavr]

Thank you.  I will read over and contemplate what you have written.

 

 

With this protocol, I was able to reduce the average PULSE pressure (the difference between the upper and lower values) by 11 units. It was 125/80, now it's 112/78.

 

If earlier the parameters jumped from (125-120)/(70-80), now they are approximately (112-117)/(75-78). This is an example from my memory.

 

The average pulse pressure became 32-34 units. And it was 44-45. And low indicators of pulse pressure have been holding for several months. That is, I did not see above 40 units after the protocol.

 

Turnbuckle, this information is also for you. Despite the fact that I have not used it yet, thank you for your protocol! He helped many people.

Edited by Kentavr, 25 February 2022 - 12:03 PM.

[coinperson]

This makes since to me, however I had never read that Resveratrol blocked replacement.  I will look more into that and thank you for the link.

How large and how often of a dosage of astragalus extract did you find that was helpful? 

Edited by coinperson, 25 February 2022 - 12:05 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

This makes since to me, however I had never read that Resveratrol blocked replacement.  I will look more into that and thank you for the link.

How large and how often of a dosage of astragalus extract did you find that was helpful? 

 

 

Anything that lengthens telomeres will prevent epigenetically old cells from aging out telomerically and thus block replacement. Without the telomere clock ticking away, this protocol wouldn't work, as cells have no way of directing detecting epigenetic age.

 

As for the time and dosage, I'm presently using 500 mg of astragalus extract with every fourth C60 treatment. These trials take so long that I cannot say what the optimum is. But clearly taking a spoonful with every treatment (as I once did) is disastrous.  In your case you might do well to use no telomere promoters for a year.

 

Anyone using this protocol should look at the other supplements they take, to make sure they aren't accidently ruining things by taking a telomerase promoter.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 February 2022 - 12:45 PM.

[QuestforLife]

Welp, I recieved my methylation age test back from https://www.mydnage.com . All I can say is that I am appalled... It came back as +9 years over my actual age. I don't even know what to do with this; going from +4 to +9 is devastating. Needless to say, I will discontinue the regiment.

It's funny because I've been taking AKG since April 2020 with good results (approx -6years delta; I'm 43) and added much more powerful telomerase activators than astragalus since Sept 2020 and this hasn't increased my epigenetic age whatsoever.

Interestingly, in 2019 I used a 1 month on/5 month off statin+sartan protocol to increase my pool of progenitor cells. Though this reduced my epigenetic age a couple of years, when I added a telomerase activator to this protocol I lost all the gains and then some(my telomeres got longer according to Life Length but my epigenetic age shot up by over 3 years according to MyDNAge). So it is something to do with producing lots of new progenitor cells that is causing sensitivity to telomerase activators. Just using AKG (as I've been doing), does not suffer the same way.

So if you want to just take AKG for 6 months, you should get good results. I went from +1 to -5 in that time on 900mg Ca-AKG/day.

[QuestforLife]

As I've noted before, telomerase enhancers can prevent TACs and somatic cells from aging out, and block replacement. New stem cells are then not utilized and are recycled. My own initial results were completely reversed when I began adding astragalus extract to my formulation, and it took a year to get it back. You are taking a lot of resveratrol, which is a known telomerase promoter.

As is sulphoraphane, at least according to this publication: www.researchgate.net/publication/305470083_Identification_of_Telomerase-activating_Blends_From_Naturally_Occurring_Compounds

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[Turnbuckle]

 Just using AKG (as I've been doing), does not suffer the same way.

 

 

 

AKG reduces epigenetic age by a different mechanism. It  will reduce epigenetic age, but it won't increase your stem cell pools. Using it together with the SC protocol will approximately double your results..

[Turnbuckle]

As is sulphoraphane, at least according to this publication: www.researchgate.net/publication/305470083_Identification_of_Telomerase-activating_Blends_From_Naturally_Occurring_Compounds

 

On a first look, their results (in IMR90 cells treated continuously over 2-15 population doublings) seem to be the opposite of what might be expected. Sulforaphane is known to decrease telomerase in cancer cells, but they saw an increase in their IMR90 cells. Resveratrol is known to increase telomerase activity, but the French wine extract they used (which contains resveratrol) decreased telomerase activity in IMR90 cells. I'm not sure how to compare their results, as they are all normalized to PD-2, which I'm assuming is 2 population doublings with constant exposure. I would have preferred to see them normalized to PD-0. They then tested "8 proprietary blends" without saying what they were, which suggests they want to sell this stuff, and the profit motive instantly made me question the reasons for using the PD-2 normalization. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 February 2022 - 03:55 PM.

[kurt9]

I did not know Resveratrol was a telomerase promoter. This is good to know.

 

I have taken it as a stand alone supplement in the past. But I have not taken it for about 2 years. I also took the Astragalus root for 5 days per month for about 6 months in 2020 as part of an immune enhancement that I got from someone who came up with such for the original SARS virus in 2003. It was about 6 months later that I recognized the Astragalus root name and realized it was a telomere elongator. Since I subscribe to Turnbukle's theories about aging, I stopped taking the Astragalus root once I recognized what it was.

 

All of this explains the wonky effects I got over the past 2 years or so. I intend to stay away from telomerase promotors for the next few years until things settle out with me.

 

The things we learn on the Longecity forums.

Edited by kurt9, 25 February 2022 - 03:49 PM.

[QuestforLife]

On a first look, their results (in IMR90 cells treated continuously over 2-15 population doublings) seem to be the opposite of what might be expected. Sulforaphane is known to decrease telomerase in cancer cells, but they saw an increase in their IMR90 cells. Resveratrol is known to increase telomerase activity, but the French wine extract they used (which contains resveratrol) decreased telomerase activity in IMR90 cells. I'm not sure how to compare their results, as they are all normalized to PD-2, which I'm assuming is 2 population doublings with constant exposure. I would have preferred to see them normalized to PD-0. They then tested "8 proprietary blends" without saying what they were, which suggests they want to sell this stuff, and the profit motive instantly made me question the reasons for using the PD-2 normalization.

If you read the whole paper they tell you what the proprietary blend is. It includes sulforaphane.

They add the blends to cell culture. The comparison of PD15 to PD2 is just saying what the relative telomerase levels increased to after exposing the cells to a given blend for that extended period (13 population doublings). Whether or not this is realistic in the body is unclear.

[Turnbuckle]

If you read the whole paper they tell you what the proprietary blend is. It includes sulforaphane.

They add the blends to cell culture. The comparison of PD15 to PD2 is just saying what the relative telomerase levels increased to after exposing the cells to a given blend for that extended period (13 population doublings). Whether or not this is realistic in the body is unclear.

 

 

I missed that, however that brings up a second problem. With these blends they are using PD-1 for normalization instead of PD-2 as they used for the individual components. This makes the blends not comparable to the individual components.

 

Now the problem with not using PD-0 is this: Let's say that in the first doubling the telomerase is cut by 90%, then in subsequent doublings it recovers but never gets back to PD-0. Then the plots would look fantastic, but would be absolutely meaningless. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 February 2022 - 04:34 PM.

[QuestforLife]

I missed that, however that brings up a second problem. With these blends they are using PD-1 for normalization instead of PD-2 as they used for the individual components. This makes the blends not comparable to the individual components.

Now the problem with not using PD-0 is this: Let's say that in the first doubling the telomerase is cut by 90%, then in subsequent doublings it recovers but never gets back to PD-0. Then the plots would look fantastic, but would be absolutely meaningless.

They used PD2 for both blends and components. It is only for the comparison to EPA/DHA that they look at a shorter period starting earlier. I don't know why they've done it this way. But comparing the blends to TA-65 shows they are about as effective. And TA-65 has plenty of prior evidence which matches the 300% increase found here. So I think the paper passes muster and provides some useful info for those looking for (or in your case looking to avoid) telomerase activating substances.

[Turnbuckle]

 TA-65 has plenty of prior evidence which matches the 300% increase found here. So I think the paper passes muster and provides some useful info for those looking for (or in your case looking to avoid) telomerase activating substances.

 

 

And yet the results for sulforaphane and resveratrol are opposite what was expected. Thus for me it doesn't pass muster.

[QuestforLife]

And yet the results for sulforaphane and resveratrol are opposite what was expected. Thus for me it doesn't pass muster.

There's no Resveratrol in this study. French Wine extract is something else.

Both sulforaphane and Resveratrol are de-acetylase inhibitors, so they will open up chromatin, which will have different effects on different cell types. Hence unpredictable results or even the opposite effect on telomerase (inhibition) in cancer cells, for example

[Turnbuckle]

There's no Resveratrol in this study. French Wine extract is something else.

Both sulforaphane and Resveratrol are de-acetylase inhibitors, so they will open up chromatin, which will have different effects on different cell types. Hence unpredictable results or even the opposite effect on telomerase (inhibition) in cancer cells, for example

 

 

Most of those selling French wine extract advertise its resveratrol content. Of course it has other polyphenols, anthocyanins and other flavonoids, according to one manufacturer.

[Paravani]

I apologize in advance, I translate the tactic with the help of Google translator. For this reason, there may be ridiculous typos. I will try to fix them as much as possible. More importantly, what information I give in general. 

 

Native English speaker here.  No typos that I noticed on a quick read.  Wouldn't have guessed it was a translation if  you hadn't told us!  

 

[Turnbuckle]

An update on my TruMe epigenetic age. It is now -28 years from my chronological age. I'm presently doing the protocol 1-2 times a week.

[FWP]

Hello Turnbuckle, great to hear that you have past the -22 years. Just to clarfiy, the protocol you are following at the moment is without the senolitic part?

[Turnbuckle]

Hello Turnbuckle, great to hear that you have past the -22 years. Just to clarfiy, the protocol you are following at the moment is without the senolitic part?

 

I am presently using the brownies described in post 1648, then 3 hours later the following stack, based on a person of 180 pounds. --

 

C60 (one teaspoon if in olive oil, 1.5-2 if in MCT oil) 

Sunflower lecithin 2-4 grams

Dihydromyricetin — 2-8 grams

Liposomal glutathione — .5-1 g

AKG (alpha ketoglutarate) — 1 g

AAKG  — 2-3 g

SAM-e — 500 mg

Lysine — 5 g

Methionine — 2 g

 

The next day I use 1g of nicotinamide, 1.5 g of ribose and 2-3g AAKG, dispensing with senolytics.

 

Notes:

I generally add the stack to OJ along with a slug of olive oil, and blend it. I believe the olive oil will slow absorption of the C60 and remove any need to space it out from the other ingredients.

More lysine and methionine may be taken a couple of hours later. They may also be used with the next day's nicotinamide and ribose.

Threonine (not listed) is optional. I have used 5-10g on occasion, so I can't say with certainty.

The second dose of dihydromyricetin may be unnecessary, as it is in the brownie. It degrades the taste of both the brownie and the stack, but is not that terrible.

The solubility of C60 in MCT oil is less than in olive oil, so I use more with MCT oil.

I use both AKG and AAKG to get short and long term action. The short action is more important with the C60 stack.

I've dispensed with sulforaphane, but it might be helpful for some people. 

Present schedule varies, but generally 1-2 times a week.

Present epigenetic age (TruMe) is 28 years less than chronological.

 

The previous protocol was in post 1619. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 March 2022 - 01:09 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I should also add that I am taking about 500 mg of astragalus root powder with the stack every 4th treatment. 

[naxleo]

I am presently using the brownies described in post 1648, then 3 hours later the following stack, based on a person of 180 pounds. --

 

C60 (one teaspoon if in olive oil, 1.5-2 if in MCT oil) 

Sunflower lecithin 2-4 grams

Dihydromyricetin — 2-8 grams

Liposomal glutathione — .5-1 g

AKG (alpha ketoglutarate) — 1 g

AAKG  — 2-3 g

SAM-e — 500 mg

Lysine — 5 g

Methionine — 2 g

 

The next day I use 1g of nicotinamide, 1.5 g of ribose and 2-3g AAKG, dispensing with senolytics.

 

Notes:

I generally add the stack to OJ along with a slug of olive oil, and blend it. I believe the olive oil will slow absorption of the C60 and remove any need to space it out from the other ingredients.

More lysine and methionine may be taken a couple of hours later. They may also be used with the next day's nicotinamide and ribose.

Threonine (not listed) is optional. I have used 5-10g on occasion, so I can't say with certainty.

The second dose of dihydromyricetin may be unnecessary, as it is in the brownie. It degrades the taste of both the brownie and the stack, but is not that terrible.

The solubility of C60 in MCT oil is less than in olive oil, so I use more with MCT oil.

I use both AKG and AAKG to get short and long term action. The short action is more important with the C60 stack.

I've dispensed with sulforaphane, but it might be helpful for some people. 

Present schedule varies, but generally 1-2 times a week.

Present epigenetic age (TruMe) is 28 years less than chronological.

 

The previous protocol was in post 1619. 

 

@Turnbuckle: Can I ask which is the role of SAM-e in this protocol? Since a methyl group donor, do you have any concern that it may increase the epigenetic age? I mean: you have been very successful in reducing your epigenetic age, but I am wondering whether the reduction might be even larger without SAM-e.

[Turnbuckle]

@Turnbuckle: Can I ask which is the role of SAM-e in this protocol? Since a methyl group donor, do you have any concern that it may increase the epigenetic age? I mean: you have been very successful in reducing your epigenetic age, but I am wondering whether the reduction might be even larger without SAM-e.

 

SAM-e is included to make sure there are enough methyl groups available. Epigenetic age is not based on too many or too few methyl groups per se, but in those methyl groups being in the right place. Thus the protocol supplies a promoter of demethylase to clean up aberrant methylation, and a methyl source to provide the raw materials for establishing the epigenetic code. The cells do these things in the right order on their own, given the proper raw materials.

 

I expect that there can be too much SAM-e or too little. What I’m using here (500 mg) seems reasonable. One study examined doses up to 1600 mg/day without finding toxicity (PMID: 15537554), and another study found that SAM-e could actually reverse aberrant methylation (PMCID: PMC8280078). This was in mice at 20 mg/kg, so again at a much higher level than used here.

 

Depletion of SAM-e will result in hypomethylation and accelerated aging. This has been seen in alcoholics and in the brains of AD patients. I have not seen any particular study on what SAM-e supplementation might do to epigenetic aging when used alone, but in a study with flies, SAM-e was found to be critical for SC proliferation —

 

Methionine depletion from the culture medium of mouse intestinal organoid led to decreases in stem cell proliferation and expression of a stem cell marker. These studies motivated us to investigate in vivo whether stem cells in the gut epithelium is controlled by SAM synthesized from dietary methionine. Here we demonstrate that the single metabolite, SAM, governs ISC through methyltransferases involved in translation. Loss of SAM triggers cell-type-specific starvation responses in ISCs and in differentiated enterocytes.

https://www.scienced...534580718301497

 

 

[DJSwarm]

As I've noted before, telomerase enhancers can prevent TACs and somatic cells from aging out, and block replacement. New stem cells are then not utilized and are recycled. My own initial results were completely reversed when I began adding astragalus extract to my formulation, and it took a year to get it back. You are taking a lot of resveratrol, which is a known telomerase promoter.

 

 

I no longer use astragalus except very sparingly, and my experience with resveratrol years ago as a stand-alone supplement was that it nearly crippled me. Which makes sense if it is preventing replacement of aging cells. I recommend using telomerase promoters with the protocol in small amounts and only once in a great while. While they may be helpful in preventing aging out of stem cells, they are a double edged sword.

 

Hmm, was just reading a study comparing astragalus/TA-65 and Epitalon.

 

A/TA improved critically short telomeres, rescuing borderline cells, and seem to improve health span but not life span.

 

Epitalon caused significantly lengthened telomeres, also increasing lifespan and increasing the number of cell divisions beyond the normal limit. 

 

They also noted there was no abnormalities observed.

 

----

 

Along those lines, another study used Yamanaka factors to rejuvenate mouse cells in vivo. This worked and the mice had rejuvenated cells. Be cautious here. Overuse of YF resulted in the cells reverting to stem cells, losing their specialization, and then organ failure.

 

However the not continuously treated groups there seemed to be actual rejuvenation of the cells to younger states.

 

I'll see if I can dig up where I stuck those and post them if there is interest.

[DJSwarm]

Hmm, was just reading a study comparing astragalus/TA-65 and Epitalon.

 

A/TA improved critically short telomeres, rescuing borderline cells, and seem to improve health span but not life span.

 

Epitalon caused significantly lengthened telomeres, also increasing lifespan and increasing the number of cell divisions beyond the normal limit. 

 

They also noted there was no abnormalities observed.

 

----

 

Along those lines, another study used Yamanaka factors to rejuvenate mouse cells in vivo. This worked and the mice had rejuvenated cells. Be cautious here. Overuse of YF resulted in the cells reverting to stem cells, losing their specialization, and then organ failure.

 

However the not continuously treated groups there seemed to be actual rejuvenation of the cells to younger states.

 

I'll see if I can dig up where I stuck those and post them if there is interest.

 

Looks like there are a lot of articles on astragalus/TA-65 only helping health span and Epitalon lengthening telomeres up to 33% increasing lifespan so I'll let you peruse those.

 

There is a newer one some where but this will get you going on Yamanaka Factors https://www.salk.edu...se-signs-aging/

Oh, for non injectors Endoluten is oral Epitalon.

Edited by DJSwarm, 21 March 2022 - 04:01 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Looks like there are a lot of articles on astragalus/TA-65 only helping health span and Epitalon lengthening telomeres up to 33% increasing lifespan so I'll let you peruse those.

 

There is a newer one some where but this will get you going on Yamanaka Factors https://www.salk.edu...se-signs-aging/

Oh, for non injectors Endoluten is oral Epitalon.

 

 

You have to be judicious in using agents to lengthen telomeres, as you can easily end up blocking stem cell replacement of aging TACs, thus increasing epigenetic age rather than decreasing it. This has been discussed here several times. 

[QuestforLife]

You have to be judicious in using agents to lengthen telomeres, as you can easily end up blocking stem cell replacement of aging TACs, thus increasing epigenetic age rather than decreasing it. This has been discussed here several times.

Since you added AKG to your regime, you might find that this is less of an issue. I might even be tempted to attribute the improvement in your most recent results to your more regular use of astragalus.

Like you, I experienced epigenetic age acceleration from telomerase activators (in my case epitalon). But I then identified AKG as a way to keep epigenetic age down, whilst still activating telomerase. And I have been very successful at doing this even when adding much more powerful TAs than astralagus.

If you think about what is happening when you stimulate stem cells, you cause a cascade of progenitor cells down into the downstream tissues. Even if a telomerase activator only adds enough telomerase for 1 more replication, that is still double the number of cells! That is a lot of cell replication for the methylation machinery to catch up with, with excess methylation clean-up by AKG dependent TETs the lagging step. So in all likelihood telomerase activators cause epigenetic age acceleration simply because they make more cells when combined with stem cell stimulation.

[Turnbuckle]

Since you added AKG to your regime, you might find that this is less of an issue. I might even be tempted to attribute the improvement in your most recent results to your more regular use of astragalus.

Like you, I experienced epigenetic age acceleration from telomerase activators (in my case epitalon). But I then identified AKG as a way to keep epigenetic age down, whilst still activating telomerase. And I have been very successful at doing this even when adding much more powerful TAs than astralagus.
 

 

 

What is your epigenetic age compared to your chronological age?

[QuestforLife]

What is your epigenetic age compared to your chronological age?

I am at a delta of -6 compared to my 43 yo.

For reference when I used TAs previously I went from -2 years to +1 (3 year change).

Since using AKG (since April 2020) I reversed that back to the current -6 (varies -4 to -7) and have maintained that even adding back powerful TAs.

It remains to be seen if that holds true when using your C60+fusion stack.

[eighthman]

Is there a special reason for the 5 gms of Lysine?  I find it difficult to take 2gms but will bear it, if needed.