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Chemically induced LTP?

ciltep pde4 forskolin ltp

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#61 health_nutty

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:37 AM

Interesting that Forskolin activates AChE promoter and up-regulates its expression:
http://www.springerl...2321067642448v/

I wonder how relevant this is at the doses we are taking? Any thoughts?

#62 abelard lindsay

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:14 AM

do you feel like you are on NZT with this combo or something? How does it improve mental clairity/logic reasoning for you, Do things that nomrally would've taken a lot of brainpower just make sense all of a sudden for you on this combo?


Dude... Limitless is science fiction. If you want to get closer to the truth about what it's like to have super intelligence, I'd recommend you read Nikola Tesla's autobiography "My Inventions". He's perhaps the smartest person that ever lived to have written an auto-biography. He talks about how he had flashbulb moments where his brain would figure out what to do instantly in dangerous situations. He had incredible physical coordination. Once he threw a stone and hit a fish jumping out of a lake in mid air and cut it in two and his uncle refused to talk to him for a while because he believed he was supernatural. When he was engineering he could imagine entire machines operating, take them apart and inspect them in his head. He also had superhuman hearing and could hear thunder 200 miles away in his Colorado lab. He even had fits where his senses would get so profoundly strong that sounds so faint so as to be inaudible to humans would disturb him.

There are different kinds of intelligence. This stack increases mental endurance for encoding of long term memories, IMHO. I used to study and get tired after relatively short amounts of time. Now I feel I can concentrate and learn things for a very long amount of time without getting tired and without having my recall of the material suffer. This has made me start to love learning in a way that I never have before. Even really hard material like the MITX course is a pleasure. I can just keep studying and studying and I never feel like giving up. This would be absolutely awesome if I was still at school. It's like the best caffeine feeling you could ever have spread out over a whole day without the jitters.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 07 May 2012 - 05:21 AM.

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#63 abelard lindsay

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:20 AM

Hey guys. The activated quercetin + forskolin + caffeine combo is even stronger than the Artichoke combo. This is probably due to the fact that Quercetin is a better PDE4 inhibitor than Luteolin. I would recommend it but the effect lasts for a long time. I can sleep as usual on it but I can still feel it a bit more than 24 hours later. I would be careful with re-dosing later in the day.

#64 gizmobrain

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:11 AM

Hey guys. The activated quercetin + forskolin + caffeine combo is even stronger than the Artichoke combo. This is probably due to the fact that Quercetin is a better PDE4 inhibitor than Luteolin. I would recommend it but the effect lasts for a long time. I can sleep as usual on it but I can still feel it a bit more than 24 hours later. I would be careful with re-dosing later in the day.

Do you notice a difference in feeling? I'm glad my quercetin is getting here tomorrow, because I want to play around with it. The artichoke gives me a bit of a "swimming" sensation (rosemary is even stronger). It's not that it is unpleasant, but it does make me wonder what is causing it and if it is bad for me. I haven't tried the Quercetin without the artichoke yet, so I'm curious to find out if the "swimming" feeling is from the pde4 inhibition or from some other compound in the artichoke.

As far as redosing, I don't think I've ever been successful. It seems like the effects stick around all day. Any time I have tried to take more artichoke or forskolin, I've either felt no different, or started feeling bad. The only thing that seems to wear off is the caffeine. I take about 50 mg every 5-6 hours.

I picked up some random stuff at the Vitamin World outlet today for cheap in search of other synergies. Really hoping to find a way to cut out the Adderall without overdoing the caffeine.

Edited by zrbarnes, 07 May 2012 - 06:20 AM.


#65 abelard lindsay

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

Does anyone notice that the CILTEP stack produces improved empathy? I don't know what it is lately, but I feel that I can emotionally connect with people far better than I used to be able to. I found myself praising people, asking more intimate questions, and generally communicating far more easily on difficult topics at work without getting defensive. Probably unrelated but just wanted to see if anyone else was experiencing this.

#66 gizmobrain

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:02 PM

Is there anything in your stack that might be inhibiting prolyl endopeptidase? That would slow the break down of oxytocin. More oxytocin -> More empathy.

#67 Gamerzneed

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:24 AM

Hmmm, I was hoping to gain mental clarity from this stack but it seems to have no effect, in fact, I think it makes me somewhat sleep and spaced out. I took 1 artichoke extract and 1 Forskolin several hours earlier today and did notice something feeling different in my head, but it wasn't the less cramped feeling that someone else posted but it actually felt like a little pressure/brain fog like caffeine gives me. Memorizing felt it was actually a little worse but I haven't tested it so I don't know for sure. My main goal in this stack was to achieve instant recall so I wouldn't take forever to think of what I need to say on this post about what happened in the day like I am doing right now. Maybe I need PDE4 agonism instead of inhibition, it really sucks when all the nootropics like piracetam, choline, DMAE, etc don't work and just think how ridiculous it is that I'm probably wasting my time. I'll keep trying this to see if anything changes though, hopefully I'll be able to not keep forgetting what I need to say. end rant/


#68 kevinseven11

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:50 AM

Gamerzneed, it sounds like you need NGF increase. If your cAMP is too high for memory improvement, it is likely because your neurons are weak or not very dense. Also it looks like you haven't tried any.

#69 abelard lindsay

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

Hmmm, I was hoping to gain mental clarity from this stack but it seems to have no effect, in fact, I think it makes me somewhat sleep and spaced out. I took 1 artichoke extract and 1 Forskolin several hours earlier today and did notice something feeling different in my head, but it wasn't the less cramped feeling that someone else posted but it actually felt like a little pressure/brain fog like caffeine gives me.


I have an acquaintance who I got to try this stack and they said that it made them feel some somewhat negative effects, like when they drank more than a little coffee. This person said that their favorite supplement was Magnesium Threonate. You might want to try that instead because it does not have any association with the Dopamine system which is what Caffeine stimulates, and what this CILTEP stack described in this thread tangentially interacts with. I personally love caffeine and drink it every day and have built up a pretty annoyingly high tolerance to it..

Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 May 2012 - 04:58 AM.


#70 Gamerzneed

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:54 AM

Gamerzneed, it sounds like you need NGF increase. If your cAMP is too high for memory improvement, it is likely because your neurons are weak or not very dense. Also it looks like you haven't tried any.


It's possible, I know I might have a hormone problem which might affect NGF, I have low libido,bad short-term memory/recall , somewhat bad logic reasoning, constant daydream, overall crappy sense of wellbeing but not depression, low energy. will try Low dose naltrexone because of it's effects on hormones (seems to elevate testosterone and correct thyroid issues with people). I have researched a bunch about it so I sort of know what I'm doing. I also remember reading about how piracetam's effects depend on adrenal hormones or something like that, if my adrenals hormones are low then it would make sense that piracetam doesn't work, as well as the artichoke/forskolin combo because of it's dependance on proper amounts of IGF, and other things like stimulants which usually make me sleepy. Sorry if I went a little off topic.
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#71 Gamerzneed

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:01 AM

I have an acquaintance who I got to try this stack and they said that it made them feel some somewhat negative effects, like when they drank more than a little coffee. This person said that their favorite supplement was Magnesium Threonate. You might want to try that instead because it does not have any association with the Dopamine system which is what Caffeine stimulates, and what this CILTEP stack described in this thread tangentially interacts with. I personally love caffeine and drink it every day and have built up a pretty annoyingly high tolerance to it..


It's not that caffeine makes me feel bad, it's just that it gives me brainfog, it makes me feel more stressed but not in a bad way, it feels like a pressure to get things done unfortunately it brain fogs me though. Do you think magnesium would have any synergism with the combo?

#72 abelard lindsay

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:15 AM

It's not that caffeine makes me feel bad, it's just that it gives me brainfog, it makes me feel more stressed but not in a bad way, it feels like a pressure to get things done unfortunately it brain fogs me though. Do you think magnesium would have any synergism with the combo?


Magnesium, especially Magnesium threonate (MgT), works on a different pathway. It is a NMDA anatoginst. NMDA receptors are associated with short term memory. When they are blocked by an antagonist, the brain produces more to compensate. More NMDA receptors = better short term memory. Also, NMDA anatagonism is kind of pleasant but doesn't make one feel smarter while it's on-going. It's the neurogenisis caused by the body's reaction to the NMDA anatagonism that makes for the nootropic effect.

The perfect nootropics is a stack that stimulates all facets of intelligence so MgT can be used to take care of the short term side and CILTEP to take care of the long term side which the short term side feeds into. There might be something odd with your brain though. It sounds like you've got some other underlying problems that you should focus on getting fixed. Have you been to an endocrinologist to get your levels checked?

Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 May 2012 - 05:16 AM.

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#73 Gamerzneed

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:33 AM

It's not that caffeine makes me feel bad, it's just that it gives me brainfog, it makes me feel more stressed but not in a bad way, it feels like a pressure to get things done unfortunately it brain fogs me though. Do you think magnesium would have any synergism with the combo?


Magnesium, especially Magnesium threonate (MgT), works on a different pathway. It is a NMDA anatoginst. NMDA receptors are associated with short term memory. When they are blocked by an antagonist, the brain produces more to compensate. More NMDA receptors = better short term memory. Also, NMDA anatagonism is kind of pleasant but doesn't make one feel smarter while it's on-going. It's the neurogenisis caused by the body's reaction to the NMDA anatagonism that makes for the nootropic effect.

The perfect nootropics is a stack that stimulates all facets of intelligence so MgT can be used to take care of the short term side and CILTEP to take care of the long term side which the short term side feeds into. There might be something odd with your brain though. It sounds like you've got some other underlying problems that you should focus on getting fixed. Have you been to an endocrinologist to get your levels checked?


Have been to a doctor but blamed it on depression and wouldn't do anything for me about it. I figured I can do a whole lot for myself more than any doctor in the world can. Once I do get my problems fixed, I'll be looking forward to retrying nootropics again.

Edited by Gamerzneed, 10 May 2012 - 06:38 AM.


#74 gizmobrain

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:10 AM

Gamerzneed, you sound a heck of a lot like me. This stack doesn't do too much for me until I add the tiny bit of Adderall... 5mg for me. It makes all the difference.

I don't recommend Adderall, but adding the components of this stack to the Adderall has allowed me to use much much less, and still have the positive effects, while minimizing most of the negative effects. I've been trying to figure out a way around it, but I haven't yet.

Also, if you are feeling pressure in your head, you probably have a bit too much vasodilation from the Forskolin. Try cutting your capsules in half (messy, I know, but I'd try it a couple times before buying a lower dose pill). The caffeine really helps me stave off the vasodilation headache, since it will constrict the blood vessels a bit.

I've added 800mg of Quercetin W/Bromelain to my stack. Definitely different feeling than the artichoke, plus it really helps my sinuses. I added some Stinging Nettle today, and I could breathe clearly all day. So right now, I'm taking the artichoke, quercetin, forskolin, caffeine, adderall and selegiline. It seems like a lot, but the doses are low and they all work very well together.

#75 health_nutty

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:31 PM

Can anyone think of any negative interactions with Aniracetam on this stack? As I wrote earlier, I was feeling a bit lightheaded / brain fog from higher doses of this stack. At lower doses it was better, but not completely gone. I noticed that it felt like Aniracetam did when I first started before upping the choline.

First I tried increasing my ACh precursers (CDP choline and ALCAR). This did not seems to help.

So, I decided to skip my aniracetam today and just try the CILEPT: So far absolutely no light headedness. Can anyone think of why?

#76 Gamerzneed

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:09 PM

Gamerzneed, you sound a heck of a lot like me. This stack doesn't do too much for me until I add the tiny bit of Adderall... 5mg for me. It makes all the difference.

I don't recommend Adderall, but adding the components of this stack to the Adderall has allowed me to use much much less, and still have the positive effects, while minimizing most of the negative effects. I've been trying to figure out a way around it, but I haven't yet.

Also, if you are feeling pressure in your head, you probably have a bit too much vasodilation from the Forskolin. Try cutting your capsules in half (messy, I know, but I'd try it a couple times before buying a lower dose pill). The caffeine really helps me stave off the vasodilation headache, since it will constrict the blood vessels a bit.

I've added 800mg of Quercetin W/Bromelain to my stack. Definitely different feeling than the artichoke, plus it really helps my sinuses. I added some Stinging Nettle today, and I could breathe clearly all day. So right now, I'm taking the artichoke, quercetin, forskolin, caffeine, adderall and selegiline. It seems like a lot, but the doses are low and they all work very well together.


Do you know the maximum safe dose of artichoke or quercetin?

And what would be the effectiveness of just artichoke extract by itself?

Edited by Gamerzneed, 10 May 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#77 gizmobrain

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:30 PM

Do you know the maximum safe dose of artichoke or quercetin?

As far as I know, none has been established. Both are fairly mild and shown to be healthy supplements on their own, especially considering that they are just food extracts. As far as I know, any studies that point to the process that we are targeting by inhibiting PDE4 + increasing cAMP use pharmaceutical analogues that are different compounds then what we are working with.

All I know is what I've found by experimentation: I can take up to 3 Nature's Herbs Artichoke capsules and 25mg of forskolin before things start feeling bad. 50mg of forskolin often causes migraines because of the vasodilation. Any more than 100mg of caffeine or 5mg of Adderall added in there will cause my bp to go up higher than what feels healthy. Adding Rosemary + Artichoke feels a little trippy. Artichoke, by itself, doesn't seem to do much. Forskolin, by itself, has some physical advantages, but not much mentally.

Has my long term memory increased? I'm not sure. I've done a couple thought experiments and seem to be able to recall things that I haven't accessed in 15 years or more. But more important for me is that my ADD/SCT/low motivation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is gone. It basically feels like it is optimizing my brain to use the Adderall to a place where I get all of the positive benefits, and hardly any negative. When I was on Adderall alone, the side effects always stood in my way of getting anything done.

Edited by zrbarnes, 10 May 2012 - 11:33 PM.


#78 NootNewb

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:18 AM

How and where are you guys getting low doses of forskolin? In fact, can you even find forskolin in places like vitamin shoppe?

#79 gizmobrain

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:08 AM

How and where are you guys getting low doses of forskolin? In fact, can you even find forskolin in places like vitamin shoppe?


Solaray's Forskohlii is only standardized to 1%, giving at minimum 3.85mg. You can find it in local shops and all over the internet.

Of course, we have been only talking about the Forskolin extract itself, but there may be subtle action that the rest of the herb causes, good and/or bad. Most of the gastrointestinal effects (gas, diarrhea) have been blamed on the rest of the herb, but not on the Forskolin extract, which is why I went with a 20% extract (and because I got it for ridiculously cheap). Not to mention, I'm also enjoying the physical improvements that I credit to the herb (increased lean muscle mass).

If I find that lowering the dosage helps, I plan to pull open the capsules and putting some in my tea in the mornings. I've tried it, and its such a small amount that it doesn't change the flavor of the tea. Also, forskolin extract is water soluble, so it should dissolve into the tea just fine.

Edited by zrbarnes, 11 May 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#80 kevinseven11

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

List of plant based PDE inhibitors
http://www.ars-grin....erase-Inhibitor

#81 abelard lindsay

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:05 PM

I was researching what subtypes of PDE4 would be worthwhile in targeting for improved memory.

PDE4D4 and PDE4D5 according to this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21209202

Phosphodiesterase-4D knock-out and RNA interference-mediated knock-down enhance memory and increase hippocampal neurogenesis via increased cAMP signaling.
...

The present results suggest that PDE4D, in particular long-form PDE4D, plays a critical role in the mediation of memory and hippocampal neurogenesis, which are mediated by cAMP/CREB signaling; reduced expression of PDE4D, or at least PDE4D4 and PDE4D5, in the hippocampus enhances memory but appears not to cause emesis. These novel findings will aid in the development of PDE4 subtype- or variant-selective inhibitors for treatment of disorders involving impaired cognition, including Alzheimer's disease.

...

Here's a drug that targets PDE4D and is 3 to 10 times more potent than Rolipram at improving memory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21649644

Strategies designed to enhance cerebral cAMP have been proposed as symptomatic treatments to counteract cognitive deficits. However, pharmacological therapies aimed at reducing PDE4, the main class of cAMP catabolizing enzymes in the brain, produce severe emetic side effects. We have recently synthesized a 3-cyclopentyloxy-4-methoxybenzaldehyde derivative, structurally related to rolipram, and endowed with selective

PDE4D inhibitory activity. The aim of the present study was to investigate the effect of the new drug, namely GEBR-7b, on memory performance, nausea, hippocampal cAMP and amyloid-β (Aβ) levels.

...

GEBR-7b increased hippocampal cAMP, did not influence Aβ levels and improved spatial, as well as object memory performance in the object recognition tests. The effect of GEBR-7b on memory was 3 to 10 times more potent than that of rolipram, and its effective doses had no effect on surrogate measures of emesis in rodents.

Unfortunately, they don't say what Isoforms of pde4d were inhibited.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 13 May 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#82 gizmobrain

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:17 PM

I'm wondering if the different plant based inhibitors prefer certain pde4 subtypes or if it is some other mechanism that causes them all to "feel" different. Quercetin definitely causes less lightheadedness than artichoke, and rosemary seems to cause even more than artichoke.

I purchased some Celery seed extract to try. Maybe I will give it a shot tomorrow, though I don't know what dosage to start at yet, so it might take a while to get a feel for it.

#83 abelard lindsay

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:26 PM

I'm wondering if the different plant based inhibitors prefer certain pde4 subtypes or if it is some other mechanism that causes them all to "feel" different. Quercetin definitely causes less lightheadedness than artichoke, and rosemary seems to cause even more than artichoke.

I purchased some Celery seed extract to try. Maybe I will give it a shot tomorrow, though I don't know what dosage to start at yet, so it might take a while to get a feel for it.

Speaking of more esoteric herbal PDE4 inhibitors:

A recent study says Mulberry (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22483586) is a PDE antagonist (

PDE4D2, PDE4B2, PDE5A1, and PDE9A2). One of these receptors may be responsible for the emesis (vomitting) side effect of Rolipram, so don't say I didn't warn you.



Also there's Kanna (

http://www.ncbi.nlm....d?term=21798331) strong PDE4 inhibition but also has 5HT Transporter effects which are thought to be responsible for it's anti-depressant, anti-anxiety properties.

#84 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:40 AM

Took kanna for a while. Helped for department and anxiety. Can't say it helped much with memory.

#85 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:40 AM

Really looking to improve my memory.

#86 gizmobrain

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:45 AM

I wish we could get some more people talking about this stack. Honestly, I'd love to experiment with different dosages, and try different pde4 inhibitors. However, on days that I change it up and it doesn't work right, then I'm back to my same unmotivated/ADD self. That means I get nothing done.

For example, today I tried to substitute DMAA for Adderall. I haven't taken DMAA for a while, and usually, the first time I take it I feel a tad bit euphoric. Today, I woke up, took my CILTEP stack + 10 mg of DMAA, laid back down, and didn't get up for 2 hours because I just felt really good lying there in bed. Not really conducive to getting stuff done.

Usually the 2nd day of taking DMAA, the euphoric effects go away, and all I feel are the motivating effects, so I'll probably try again tomorrow.

#87 vali

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

I've taken this stack several times now. My biggest stack so far has been 17mg forskolin, 3 artichoke extract pills, and 80 mg caffeine. Not much happened. I've tried this stack with and without caffeine, and I'm pretty sure the only effect I felt was the caffeine. My current plan is to keep stepping up the forskolin dosage until I get an effect or I empty the pill bottle, whichever comes first.

Abelard Lindsay: How long did you take this stack before you notices increased memory scores? What dosages are you taking right now?

#88 kevinseven11

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:43 PM

Im currently on 20mg forskolin and 2 artichoke extract. If I don't feel it ill change it and update. This cilept stack appears promising especially after taking something that decreased my cAMP amounts.

#89 gizmobrain

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:59 PM

A synergistic drink I've found has been Runa brand Guayusa tea. It is made from Ilex guayusa leaves that contains caffeine, theobromine, l-theanine, and theophylline. Theophylline is a weak, non-selective PDE inhibitor. (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15191033)

I wouldn't go overboard with it since it is non-selective, but it is a very interesting tea. Indigenous Amazonian hunters drink guayusa to sharpen their instincts and call it the “Night Watchman" because it helps them stay alert and awake all night. (http://www.runa.org/...alheritage.aspx)

It also contains a several other nutrients. (http://www.runa.org/...thbenefits.aspx)

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#90 abelard lindsay

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:01 PM

It seems that the people who are having good results are taking dopamine activating supplements or drugs. This would make sense as the cAMP/CREB cascade is triggered by dopamine receptor activation(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21057772).

Me: L-Phenylalanine (Amino acid building block of Dopamine)
ZRBarnes: Adderall
Health Nutty: Looking at your stack (http://www.longecity...-on-perfection/) Ginko is the only dopamine increasing element (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20411379) I see besides Caffeine. Methylene Blue does all kinds of funky stuff but it's supposedly not dopamine increasing.

Anyway, I know we're getting kind of complicated here but I am going to revise the CILTEP stack a bit.
One Herbal PDE4 inhibitor
  • Artichoke Extract or
  • Activated Quercetin
One cAMP increaser
  • Forskolin
Optionally, a dopamine increasing supplement:
  • L-Pheynylalanine (Don't confuse it with DL-Phenylalanine)
  • Caffeine (helps but may not be enough by itself)
  • Ginko

Edited by abelard lindsay, 15 May 2012 - 11:03 PM.

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