2844 replies to this topic

[Jacob Norris]

I took a supplement with 900 mg DHA and some theanine in stead of fish oil. Was this overkill? I had some very bad brain fog and was definitely feeling the effect I had gotten the day before.

To my knowledge L-Thianine is an amino acid, while fish oil contains the Omega 3 Fatty Acids EPA DHA and ALA. So in no way should L-thianine replace your fish oil.

[Jacob Norris]

Based on this, since, it was added to their food and they probably don't eat only one meal a day. Than, it shouldn't matter if you split it up.

Great Thanks!

Also, I should note that while we are debating about kinds of uridine technically they didn't use any pure uridine just the uridine in CDP choline which is a prodrug for uridine and choline.

So, if you are on a tight budget, other than some anecdotal reports, you may not need to add uridine if you use cdp choline

cytidine diphosphate choline to my knowledge (CDP choline) converts to cytidine and choline and cytidine converts into uridine.

So would one assume that if you supplement with CDP Choline then you'd need less uridine?
Or even just DHA and CDP Choline?

How about Alpha GPC?

[MrHappy]

Based on this, since, it was added to their food and they probably don't eat only one meal a day. Than, it shouldn't matter if you split it up.

Great Thanks!

Also, I should note that while we are debating about kinds of uridine technically they didn't use any pure uridine just the uridine in CDP choline which is a prodrug for uridine and choline.

So, if you are on a tight budget, other than some anecdotal reports, you may not need to add uridine if you use cdp choline

cytidine diphosphate choline to my knowledge (CDP choline) converts to cytidine and choline and cytidine converts into uridine.

So would one assume that if you supplement with CDP Choline then you'd need less uridine?
Or even just DHA and CDP Choline?

How about Alpha GPC?

Mmm. We've experimented with large CDP choline doses in the past and found the effects not even in the same ball-park to eg. 250mg UMP, sublingually. I'm not actually sure what the conversion rate or efficiency is, in vivo. It may be that the body only decides to convert a certain amount, based on its requirements, rather than being 'force-fed' uridine.

[Virtual Reality]

I want to try this stack, ive used stimulants in the past, cocaine etc.
I want to try and upregulate da receptors,
Can anyone tell me the stack for this.
ive heard sulbutiamine is good for cocaine withdrawal aswel.

[Virtual Reality]

and is the uridine from jarror formulas any good? Or do i need the ump?
And will it lose effectiveness overtime, can you develop a tolerance?
Sorry for the nooby questions, but this on my mind right now.

[Jacob Norris]

Yes, I'm very curious about the interaction of sulbutiamine with this stack. Has anyone tried this combination? And what could the health risks be?

[mrd1]

Sulbutamine has a pretty unique ability to increase the D1 transporters which do play a role in mediating the effects of cocaine

The primary dopamine receptors of interest for motivation/mood are D1/D2 possibly D3

CDP choline Alpha GPC and Uridine have the ability in HIGH doses and over the LONG TERM to upregulate the D2/D3 receptors after CHRONIC exposure.

Sulbutamine can upregulate the D1 receptor in the LONG term with CHRONIC exposure

if you are a noob I would just buy CDP choline and fish oil atless you want to go H.A.M.

l-theanine can not replace fish oil in this stack because DHA is a limiting fact in mediating the primary mechanism of efficacy of this stack.

However, it is very cheap and very safe , IMO, 100-250mg before a cognitive task or stressful event may provide slight cognitive benefit. However, nowhere near comparable to this stack.

Alpha GPC is a fine alternative to CDP Choline however, IF AND ONLY IF you have access to pure uridine since Alpha GPC will only supply you with Choline.

[mrd1]

I have reciently added 1200 mg of sulbutamine to this stack which I am dosing at very high doses around 2-3g per choline source 1-1.5g pure uridine and 2-4g dha or 8g-16g fish oil

However, Just because I don't die doesn't mean this is safe ahaha. To put this in perspect I just took this as a one of 2-4 stacks a day.
50mcg clenbuterol (140mcg/day)
75 mg benadyrl
320 mg caffeine
800 mg egcg
1750 mg reversatrol
4000 mg fish oil
300 mg rasberry ketones
3750 mg tumeric
200-300 mg black pepper
3600 mg letchin
500 mg niacin
800 mg green bean coffee extract
325mg grape seed

So as you can see what I can tolerate may not be able to be extrapolated to others.

[Jacob Norris]

and is the uridine from jarror formulas any good? Or do i need the ump?
And will it lose effectiveness overtime, can you develop a tolerance?
Sorry for the nooby questions, but this on my mind right now.

No, you will not build a tolerance, in fact you will necome more sensitive to stimulants even when getting off the stack.
Please read through this thread so questions will not be repeated.

[Rush23]

I have been using this stack for the past month now. The combo provides a clear smooth flow of mood and clarity. However it has also provided me occasionally with a brain fog and I cannot distill the reason why. Another reason I am stopping this combo is because I see no memory improvement at all. I know that it take 24 weeks to conclude anything meaningful. I have read up on this entire thread as well as the pubmed articles showing memory improvement and dendritic spine growth in rats. I believe that is fascinating. The first souvenaid human trial yielded positive results. However a subsequent bigger and better designed trial showed absolutely no improvement in patients memory which is a bit disappointing. I might cycle this combo for the mood enhancement properties but I will reserve my own doubts regarding memory enhancement.

Has anyone noticed a significant boost in recall memory? Declarative memory? It really hasn't helped me at all in med school.




The S-Connect study: results from a randomized, controlled trial of Souvenaid in mild-to-moderate Alzheimer's disease.

AuthorsShah RC, et al. Show all Journal
Alzheimers Res Ther. 2013 Nov 26;5(6):59. [Epub ahead of print]

Affiliation
Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Souvenaid® containing Fortasyn® Connect is a medical food designed to support synapse synthesis in persons with Alzheimer's disease (AD). Fortasyn Connect includes precursors (uridine monophosphate; choline; phospholipids; eicosopentaenoic acid; docosahexaenoic acid) and cofactors (vitamins E, C, B12, and B6; folic acid; selenium) for the formation of neuronal membranes. Whether Souvenaid slows cognitive decline in treated persons with mild-to-moderate AD has not been addressed.

METHODS: In a 24-week, double-masked clinical trial at 48 clinical centers, 527 participants taking AD medications [52% women, mean age 76.7 years (Standard Deviation, SD = 8.2), and mean Mini-Mental State Examination score 19.5 (SD = 3.1, range 14--24)] were randomized 1:1 to daily, 125-mL (125 kcal), oral intake of the active product (Souvenaid) or an iso-caloric control. The primary outcome of cognition was assessed by the 11-item Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subscale (ADAS-cog). Compliance was calculated from daily diary recordings of product intake. Statistical analyses were performed using mixed models for repeated measures.

RESULTS: Cognitive performance as assessed by ADAS-cog showed decline over time in both control and active study groups, with no significant difference between study groups (difference =0.37 points, Standard Error, SE = 0.57, p = 0.513). No group differences in adverse event rates were found and no clinically relevant differences in blood safety parameters were noted. Overall compliance was high (94.1% [active] and 94.5% [control]), which was confirmed by significant changes in blood (nutritional) biomarkers.

CONCLUSIONS: Add-on intake of Souvenaid during 24 weeks did not slow cognitive decline in persons treated for mild-to-moderate AD. Souvenaid was well tolerated in combination with standard care AD medications.Trial registration: Dutch Trial Register number: NTR1683.




[Health claims for medical foods].

Authors
Katan MB.
Journal
Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2013;157(24):A6471. Article in Dutch.

Affiliation
Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, afd. Gezondheidswetenschappen, Amsterdam, the Netherlands. katan99@falw.vu.nl

Abstract
Souvenaid (Nutricia, Zoetermeer, the Netherlands) is a medical food for the dietary management of early Alzheimer's disease. The mix of nutrients in this drink is suggested to have a beneficial effect on cognitive function; such implicit health claims for medical foods are not checked by government agencies. Souvenaid has been investigated in three clinical trials. The first trial showed that Souvenaid produced a significant improvement in delayed verbal recall, but not in other psychological tests. The second and largest trial showed no effect on any outcome. The third trial showed no significant effect at 12 or 24 weeks, but a significant difference in the 24-week time course of the composite memory score. None of these outcomes was clearly specified as a primary outcome at trial registration. In conclusion, there is no convincing proof that Souvenaid benefits cognitive function. Better scrutiny of the efficacy of medical foods is warranted.

PMID 23759182 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[BlueCloud]

That's what I do. Tip your head back and twist the capsule open as you dump it under your tongue. Actually I preferred the bulk uridine though and am going to go that route again. The caps have fillers and flow agents in them and doesn't seem to absorb quite as nicely.

I was wondering about that. I just got some Uridine ( ump, Jarrows ) in capsule form and intend to take it sublingually. Unless I've missed some, everyone here seems to be taking it in bulk form . Is there anything in the fillers as such that would make it a bad idea to use sublingually, or is it just the fact that absorption might be reduced ?

[X_Danny_X]

I have been using this stack for the past month now. The combo provides a clear smooth flow of mood and clarity. However it has also provided me occasionally with a brain fog and I cannot distill the reason why. Another reason I am stopping this combo is because I see no memory improvement at all. I know that it take 24 weeks to conclude anything meaningful. I have read up on this entire thread as well as the pubmed articles showing memory improvement and dendritic spine growth in rats. I believe that is fascinating. The first souvenaid human trial yielded positive results. However a subsequent bigger and better designed trial showed absolutely no improvement in patients memory which is a bit disappointing. I might cycle this combo for the mood enhancement properties but I will reserve my own doubts regarding memory enhancement.

Has anyone noticed a significant boost in recall memory? Declarative memory? It really hasn't helped me at all in med school.




The S-Connect study: results from a randomized, controlled trial of Souvenaid in mild-to-moderate Alzheimer's disease.

AuthorsShah RC, et al. Show all Journal
Alzheimers Res Ther. 2013 Nov 26;5(6):59. [Epub ahead of print]

Affiliation
Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Souvenaid® containing Fortasyn® Connect is a medical food designed to support synapse synthesis in persons with Alzheimer's disease (AD). Fortasyn Connect includes precursors (uridine monophosphate; choline; phospholipids; eicosopentaenoic acid; docosahexaenoic acid) and cofactors (vitamins E, C, B12, and B6; folic acid; selenium) for the formation of neuronal membranes. Whether Souvenaid slows cognitive decline in treated persons with mild-to-moderate AD has not been addressed.

METHODS: In a 24-week, double-masked clinical trial at 48 clinical centers, 527 participants taking AD medications [52% women, mean age 76.7 years (Standard Deviation, SD = 8.2), and mean Mini-Mental State Examination score 19.5 (SD = 3.1, range 14--24)] were randomized 1:1 to daily, 125-mL (125 kcal), oral intake of the active product (Souvenaid) or an iso-caloric control. The primary outcome of cognition was assessed by the 11-item Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subscale (ADAS-cog). Compliance was calculated from daily diary recordings of product intake. Statistical analyses were performed using mixed models for repeated measures.

RESULTS: Cognitive performance as assessed by ADAS-cog showed decline over time in both control and active study groups, with no significant difference between study groups (difference =0.37 points, Standard Error, SE = 0.57, p = 0.513). No group differences in adverse event rates were found and no clinically relevant differences in blood safety parameters were noted. Overall compliance was high (94.1% [active] and 94.5% [control]), which was confirmed by significant changes in blood (nutritional) biomarkers.

CONCLUSIONS: Add-on intake of Souvenaid during 24 weeks did not slow cognitive decline in persons treated for mild-to-moderate AD. Souvenaid was well tolerated in combination with standard care AD medications.Trial registration: Dutch Trial Register number: NTR1683.




[Health claims for medical foods].

Authors
Katan MB.
Journal
Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2013;157(24):A6471. Article in Dutch.

Affiliation
Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, afd. Gezondheidswetenschappen, Amsterdam, the Netherlands. katan99@falw.vu.nl

Abstract
Souvenaid (Nutricia, Zoetermeer, the Netherlands) is a medical food for the dietary management of early Alzheimer's disease. The mix of nutrients in this drink is suggested to have a beneficial effect on cognitive function; such implicit health claims for medical foods are not checked by government agencies. Souvenaid has been investigated in three clinical trials. The first trial showed that Souvenaid produced a significant improvement in delayed verbal recall, but not in other psychological tests. The second and largest trial showed no effect on any outcome. The third trial showed no significant effect at 12 or 24 weeks, but a significant difference in the 24-week time course of the composite memory score. None of these outcomes was clearly specified as a primary outcome at trial registration. In conclusion, there is no convincing proof that Souvenaid benefits cognitive function. Better scrutiny of the efficacy of medical foods is warranted.

PMID 23759182 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

What about Cognitive Enhancement??? You know, working memory....did it make you more intelligent? And this question can apply to anyone..

[BlueCloud]

So, I've taken two doses so far ( 250, sub) . Didn't notice any accute/short term effects.

[Jacob Norris]

So, I've taken two doses so far ( 250, sub) . Didn't notice any accute/short term effects.

Are you taking a Choline source and your Omega 3's?

What is recommended is Uridine, Choline CDP, and a fish oil high in DHA.

[BlueCloud]

So, I've taken two doses so far ( 250, sub) . Didn't notice any accute/short term effects.

Are you taking a Choline source and your Omega 3's?

What is recommended is Uridine, Choline CDP, and a fish oil high in DHA.

i take Alcar a few days a week, sometimes cdp-choline. My brain is already overflowing with acetylcholine anyway ( I never need to supplement choline to make Piracetam work, for example).
I don't take fish oil. It doesn't agree with me , depresses my mood and triggers my allergies. I eat lots of fatty fish every week however ( salmon, sardines, tuna, etc..)

[meth_use_lah]

Anyone have experience with UMP from botanicals4less2011 on ebay? Good price and shipping to EU if they are legit.
I tried Jarrows UMP and they didn't convince me as being effective beyond CDP-choline and DHA.
Not sure if fillers in Jarrows UMP mess with sublingual administration or not but I hope so because a few random days I slept great while using it (5 out of 30 days).

Edited by meth_use_lah, 11 December 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[Barfly]

Anyone have experience with UMP from botanicals4less2011 on ebay? Good price and shipping to EU if they are legit.
I tried Jarrows UMP and they didn't convince me as being effective beyond CDP-choline and DHA.
Not sure if fillers in Jarrows UMP mess with sublingual administration or not but I hope so because a few random days I slept great while using it (5 out of 30 days).

I am using their uridine and it seems legit according to the description itt (sugar like crystal substance, salty taste) and some beneficial effects I experienced from it.

Only other uridine I have tried was from Blissfull Foods and it looked/tasted exactly the same, so I am either using legit stuff or I was scammed twice from 2 different sellers from 2 continents selling same looking fake uridine ( unlikely I hope : )

[meth_use_lah]

Anyone have experience with UMP from botanicals4less2011 on ebay? Good price and shipping to EU if they are legit.
I tried Jarrows UMP and they didn't convince me as being effective beyond CDP-choline and DHA.
Not sure if fillers in Jarrows UMP mess with sublingual administration or not but I hope so because a few random days I slept great while using it (5 out of 30 days).

I am using their uridine and it seems legit according to the description itt (sugar like crystal substance, salty taste) and some beneficial effects I experienced from it.

Only other uridine I have tried was from Blissfull Foods and it looked/tasted exactly the same, so I am either using legit stuff or I was scammed twice from 2 different sellers from 2 continents selling same looking fake uridine ( unlikely I hope : )

I'm not saying Jarrows product isn't UMP, but their product isn't pure UMP it contains fillers.

[Barfly]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here, sorry;

I was referring to this quote from you "Anyone have experience with UMP from botanicals4less2011 on ebay?"

[Puppeteer]

Just wondering if someone more savvy than I can help me out here: I'm interested in starting this regimen but I'm currently taking Lamictal (lamotrigine) and was wanting to know if there's any chance of a negative interaction. A Google search of the two substances returned that Lamictal is "metabolized by the uridine diphosphate glucuronosyltransferase system" but I really have no idea what that might mean for uridine supplementation. Cheers.

[brainstorm11]

May have missed this through 76 pages, but how much CDP choline is turned into uridine (after some middle step)?

[BlueCloud]

I've upped my dosage to 1000mg per day ( 500mg sublingual in the morning, 500mg orally afternoon ). I will keep this dosage untilI finish the bottle. So far I don't notice anything at all. Either the Jarrows capsules are filled with nothing but sugar, or I'm completely non-respondant to Uridine...

[BlueCloud]

CDP choline Alpha GPC and Uridine have the ability in HIGH doses and over the LONG TERM to upregulate the D2/D3 receptors after CHRONIC exposure.

while CDP-choline converts partially into Uridine, I think its effects on dopamine receptors upregulation must be due to some other mechanism than uridine. And I find its upregulating effects quite fast actually . I documented the effects here and here
Basically :
- Cdp-Choline by itself doesn't do anything to me.
- L-Tyrosine works but weakly, even at doses of up to 3g. Same thing with Sulbutiamine
- Taking Cdp-Choline ( 250/500 mg) for 3 or 4 days prior to taking Tyrosine or Sulb greatly enhances the effects of the later, and sustains it for almost as long as I'm taking them.

I"m hoping Uridine would have the same effects ( or better ) than Cdp-Choline.

[mrd1]

CDP choline gets converted in Choline and Cytosine and cytosine then gets metabolized into uridine which has been demonstrated in humans

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10974208

[brainstorm11]

CDP choline gets converted in Choline and Cytosine and cytosine then gets metabolized into uridine which has been demonstrated in humans

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10974208

Cytosine - that's it. Still - how much uridine comes from this process?

[mrd1]

500-2000 mg of CDP choline will increase uridine levels in the brain by 70-120% for 5-6 hours being "covered" meaning significantly active amounts of uridine http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10974208

Therefore, 500 mg of CDP Choline 3x a day should get you most of the uridine benefit

and therefore, I suppose one must be able to demonstrate choline levels higher than that offered in such a dosing to show significant effects.

Eitherway, the evidence is clear. Dosing three times a day is much greater than one mega dose. Atleast, as far as maximizing and sustaining plasma uridine levels with CDP choline.

[dancarlin0]

I took DHA, UMP and Inositol instead of choline to see what the effects would be. Since phosphoinositol is on of the main phosphotide that's increased by the stack. It seemed to greatly alter my mood, but possibly at the expensive of cognitive function. I was more content and was less OCD, but I found cognitive tasks to be more challenging and require more directed focus. My cambridge scores we're not much altered after a bit of practice.

Inositol alone doesn't seem to alter my mood that much. But when I was on the DHA UMP and Insitol I was catching myself doing absent minded things all the time. It was almost like I was too relaxed. Maybe it altered my mind for the better and I just need to relearn tasks from a new frame of mind. In all DHA, UMP and Inositol seems to be a pleasant but hazy stack almost like you're mildly high.

Later I added choline to the stack and that seemed to increase my OCD and decrease how challenging I felt cognitive tasks were. About what you would expect.

[magta39]

I am curious...how much inositol were you taking?

[Strangelove]

Anyone have experience with UMP from botanicals4less2011 on ebay? Good price and shipping to EU if they are legit.
I tried Jarrows UMP and they didn't convince me as being effective beyond CDP-choline and DHA.
Not sure if fillers in Jarrows UMP mess with sublingual administration or not but I hope so because a few random days I slept great while using it (5 out of 30 days).

Good seller, I use their uridine myself, their price is even cheaper now (7$) for 25gr. I bought mine something like three months ago.

[mrd1]

Why not choline, dha, uridine, inositol?

I take lithium carbonate which is similar to inositol loosely with this stack