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The Absolute Oils 101 Thread

olive oil macadamia oil hazelnut oil polyunsaturated monounsaturated saturated safflower canola almond

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#31 misterE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:02 AM

Wrong #1: Olive Oil is a great source of alpha-tocopherol (vit.E).


Wrong #2: More calories than table sugar yet noone became diabetic out of consuming olive oil and way too much people did - out of table sugar. Are you really suggesting table sugar over olive oil just because it's too hard for you to count calories ? GIve me a break.



#1. It's also a great source of fat and calories! Half an ounce of fat per table spoon! Guess where that fat goes buddy. All that fat is going to be stored either in the adipose-tissue or accumulate ectopically.



#2. Perhaps if you were familiar with the scientific-literature (which I presume you aren't), you will see that fat-calories causes diabetes, not carbohydrate. High-fat diets are well known (to researchers anyway) to cause insulin-resistance and low-fat/high-carbohydrate diets are known for their insulin-sensitizing effects. The dangers with sugar come from fructose. Fructose causes diabetes by converting into fat, the fat created from the fructose then goes on to impair insulin from binding to its receptor.



It's the fat that causes diabetes not (complex) carbohydrate.

Edited by misterE, 22 February 2013 - 02:04 AM.

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#32 misterE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:13 AM

OK, but 60ml of oil is a lot. It is interesting that the fry level didn't matter. Too bad they didn't do a control meal without any oil, because as far as we know, the trigs and FMD might have shown a similar problem from the potato soup alone. I don't suppose we know if the olive oil was a good fresh high polyphenol version, versus some oxidized old garbage. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not these acute post-prandial numbers have any bearing on long term health, or if they are just a series of red herrings.




OK, so you are skeptical of the study.

What do you make of the Esselstyn video I posted?

Why wouldn't anyone take advice from a man that has proven to reverse clogged arteries, like Esselstyn or Ornish? Why do we keep making up excuses for our oil use?

If you want to ignore the grim-facts about oil (like its ability to increase triglycerides, cause obesity, decrease insulin-sensitivity and decrease blood-flow) then be my guest. But I can’t sit back without telling people my view; an alternative view and another option. Plus this wouldn’t be the “ultimate oil thread” without some opposing views.

Edited by misterE, 22 February 2013 - 02:14 AM.

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#33 misterE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:32 AM

A little bit of salt, sugar and fat can go a long way when it comes to bringing joy to the necessity of eating.






That is true. Humans are hard-wired to crave fat, sugar and salt. This “wiring” was protective when food was scarce because eating fat and sugar effortless allows for overconsumption of calories and is easily stored as fat, which was necessary for survival a long time ago. Nowadays we have no food scarcity, but we still crave the fat, sugar and salt.

The American diet has literally become less starchy and more fatty and sugary throughout the 20th century. Fat in the form of meat, cheese, ice-cream and oils has dramatically increased and sugar consumption, mainly from soda’s, processed-foods and table-sugar have also increased all at the expense of whole-grains, beans and potatoes.

Edited by misterE, 22 February 2013 - 02:32 AM.


#34 bernard

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:16 AM

#1. It's also a great source of fat and calories! Half an ounce of fat per table spoon! Guess where that fat goes buddy. All that fat is going to be stored either in the adipose-tissue or accumulate ectopically.

Sure, if you are some couch potato, which I am not. If you aren't triglycerides get used for energy.

#2. Perhaps if you were familiar with the scientific-literature (which I presume you aren't), you will see that fat-calories causes diabetes, not carbohydrate. High-fat diets are well known (to researchers anyway) to cause insulin-resistance and low-fat/high-carbohydrate diets are known for their insulin-sensitizing effects. The dangers with sugar come from fructose. Fructose causes diabetes by converting into fat, the fat created from the fructose then goes on to impair insulin from binding to its receptor.

Exactly the opposite. Low-carb diets are what is used to cause an increase in insulin sensitivity. Take ketogenic diets in bodybuilding for example. There is a concept called glycogen supercompensation. It's an event that can occur only when extreme insulin sensitivity in muscle cells is present. To create this, first you go 0 carbs for a couple of days while training to deplete glycogen. Then once, your glycogen is depleted, and you've kept low to no carbs for a few days you switch to a high-carb period. Mostly simple sugars with high glycemic index. Well guess what, your insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue is so high, that all the carbs are forced to become glycogen and the rate at which this is happening is so fast, that they even cause kinetic expansion of glycogen cells thus resuling in an anabolic effect.


Sure - saturated fat has been shown to cause insulin sensitivity, but noone here is talking about saturated fat (except for coconut oil) and obviously high carb diets are the reason for many many problems such as diabetes, leptin resistance and so on. You gotta read up stuff man. Check out Lyle McDonald's Body Recomposition website. Really cool stuff, not some bullshit quasi-scientific idiocracy like esseltyn.
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#35 RJ100

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

Check out Lyle McDonald's Body Recomposition website. Really cool stuff, not some bullshit quasi-scientific idiocracy like esseltyn.



Advocating a vegan diet that is no/low oil for people with severe atherosclerosis isn't really "bullshit quasi-scientific".

The prob with Esselstyn and misterE is that they take it too far and advocate it for everyone. I, for one, would not do well on a vegan diet.

I like Lyle, and I'm pretty sure he'd be the first to tell you that he doesn't know everything. Unlike a lot of his fans, whom I've met online and in gyms, who quote him and Rippetoe like scripture.

#36 misterE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

Advocating a vegan diet that is no/low oil for people with severe atherosclerosis isn't really "bullshit quasi-scientific".

The prob with Esselstyn and misterE is that they take it too far and advocate it for everyone.



Of course it's not bullshit. It's been clinically proven to melt away atherosclerotic-plaque!

However, I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow this diet 100%, I do eat some meat, dairy, fat and sugar on occasion. But what I want people to realize is that the closer we move to a diet centered on whole-grains, beans and potatoes, or the more we incorporate those foods into our diet, the healthier we and the planet will become. That is what I personally believe and that is what the science clearly indicates.

Edited by misterE, 22 February 2013 - 06:10 PM.

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#37 niner

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

What do you make of the Esselstyn video I posted?

Why wouldn't anyone take advice from a man that has proven to reverse clogged arteries, like Esselstyn or Ornish? Why do we keep making up excuses for our oil use?


I thought the video sounded a little bit like a cult leader preaching to the converted. He did cite some studies, and it would probably be worth looking at them a little harder, but they sounded like a bit of a stretch as a rationale for what at least sounds like a fairly radical diet. For example, there was one study that looked at MUFAs which he said "were like olive oil", or something to that effect, which made it sound like it wasn't actually olive oil. Animal studies using high doses of anything are problematic. He didn't address any of the epidemiology on olive oil, which looks extremely good, and is probably strongly influenced by polyphenols.

I'm not suggesting that people start drinking out of the deep fat fryer at McDonald's, and personally, I try pretty hard to avoid industrial seed oils. I use a moderate amount of high quality, high polyphenol olive oil, a bit of coconut oil and a little butter; that's my main oil consumption, which I don't intend to stop on Esselstyn's advice.

I have to admit that I'm intrigued by these reports of atherosclerosis reversal. I'd be interested in knowing the ApoE genotype of the patients, their coronary calcium scores, and how common those cases are. William Davis has obtained some impressive reversals in a few cases, but for all these guys, what is their overall batting average?

#38 misterE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

He didn't address any of the epidemiology on olive oil, which looks extremely good, and is probably strongly influenced by polyphenols.


I assume you are referring to Mediterranean-diets. Yes they are much healthier than the current American-diet, but an even healthier diet would be an Asian diet. The reason why the Mediterranean-diet is healthy is because there is a lot less red-meat, cheese, sugar and processed-foods and more fruits, vegetables, beans and whole-grains... not because of the oil. It's healthier despite the oil.


William Davis has obtained some impressive reversals in a few cases



Has he published these "impressive reversals" in the scientific-literature? If so, can you direct me to the study?

#39 niner

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:35 AM

He didn't address any of the epidemiology on olive oil, which looks extremely good, and is probably strongly influenced by polyphenols.


I assume you are referring to Mediterranean-diets. Yes they are much healthier than the current American-diet, but an even healthier diet would be an Asian diet. The reason why the Mediterranean-diet is healthy is because there is a lot less red-meat, cheese, sugar and processed-foods and more fruits, vegetables, beans and whole-grains... not because of the oil. It's healthier despite the oil.


I was talking about the Spanish cohort of the EPIC study, in which it was found that over a long followup period, greater consumption of olive oil resulted in lower mortality. It's discussed here.

William Davis has obtained some impressive reversals in a few cases



Has he published these "impressive reversals" in the scientific-literature? If so, can you direct me to the study?

Beats me. I read about it on his blog. What I'd like to know is what fraction of people following any of these three doctor's protocols attains a substantial reversal? 1%? All of them?

#40 Kevnzworld

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:05 AM

But what I want people to realize is that the closer we move to a diet centered on whole-grains, beans and potatoes, or the more we incorporate those foods into our diet, the healthier we and the planet will become. That is what I personally believe and that is what the science clearly indicates.


I don't think a diet " centered on whole-grains, beans and potatoes " is a very healthy one. It certainly isn't a Mediterranean diet. Anyone who has spent any time in the Mediterranean knows that olive oil plays a significant role in their diet. Olive oil, salt and pepper is on every table. Potatoes?
Quote: " Potatoes fall into the moderately high to high ranges on the glycemic index, which measures the effects of foods on blood glucose. Potatoes actually rank closer to table sugar, which consists of glucose and fructose, than to other starches, which are composed of long chains of glucose, notes the Linus Pauling Institute."

Edited by Kevnzworld, 23 February 2013 - 06:11 AM.

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#41 zorba990

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

He didn't address any of the epidemiology on olive oil, which looks extremely good, and is probably strongly influenced by polyphenols.


I assume you are referring to Mediterranean-diets. Yes they are much healthier than the current American-diet, but an even healthier diet would be an Asian diet. The reason why the Mediterranean-diet is healthy is because there is a lot less red-meat, cheese, sugar and processed-foods and more fruits, vegetables, beans and whole-grains... not because of the oil. It's healthier despite the oil.


I was talking about the Spanish cohort of the EPIC study, in which it was found that over a long followup period, greater consumption of olive oil resulted in lower mortality. It's discussed here.

William Davis has obtained some impressive reversals in a few cases



Has he published these "impressive reversals" in the scientific-literature? If so, can you direct me to the study?

Beats me. I read about it on his blog. What I'd like to know is what fraction of people following any of these three doctor's protocols attains a substantial reversal? 1%? All of them?


And how many become depressed or hormone deficient (or infertile) due to lack of fatty acids in the diet and low cholesterol (associated with higher mortality). How many become fat like the commercial cattle whose feed can best be described as - --- grain based. Game meats, fruits, and vegetables - this is what my brother has used to reverse metabolic syndrome and I think it's the easiest diet to stay on and keep calories low enough to avoid most diseases. Good luck with the potatoes.....

#42 misterE

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

I was talking about the Spanish cohort of the EPIC study, in which it was found that over a long followup period, greater consumption of olive oil resulted in lower mortality.


Probably because it was compared to butter or margarine. Sure olive oil will reduce mortality if you substitute it for butter or lard. But no oil (or extremely low amounts) is optimal for overall longevity (in my opinion).

Oil is liquid fat. I've shown evidence that oils damage the endothelium, decrease blood-flow and increase triglycerides, not to the same extent as butter or margarine, but there is still some damage done, and the three leading heart-disease docs tend to agree.




Has he published these "impressive reversals" in the scientific-literature? If so, can you direct me to the study?





Beats me. I read about it on his blog.

LOL! :laugh:




What I'd like to know is what fraction of people following any of these three doctor's protocols attains a substantial reversal? 1%? All of them?


Everyone who can manage to actually stay on this diet long-term (and not stray away, in which many have) has been able to stop and reverse their atherosclerosis to various degree's. The results are not based on age, but rather on the degree you stick to these dietary-recommendations.

Edited by misterE, 24 February 2013 - 05:27 PM.

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#43 misterE

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:55 PM

Potatoes fall into the moderately high to high ranges on the glycemic index



So?


The glycemic-index (GI) marks how fast a food is broken down into glucose. Foods that are low or deficient in glucose, like fish or chicken, obviously won't breakdown into glucose, so therefore they are considered low-GI. Sucrose (table-sugar) is 50% glucose/50% fructose. So the reason sugar is lower-GI (than potato) is because the high-GI glucose is paired with a low-GI fructose, giving it a lower average rating than just glucose alone.

But we shouldn't base our diets on the GI. For instance, if you were to eat a low-GI diet, you would be better off eating a stick of butter than a carrot. You would be better off eating table-sugar than a baked potato. You would be better off eating bacon grease than baked-beans! Plus cultures that eat high-GI diets like the Asians eating white-rice (a refined carb) do much better than us (Americans) eating low-GI meats, fats and sugars, in terms of health, looks and longevity.

Saturated-fat and fructose are both low-GI, but are notorious for causing insulin-resistance. Whole-grains, which are higher GI than meat, cheese and sugar, are known for their insulin-sensitizing effects.

The glycemic index is a poor way of choosing which foods to eat and which foods to avoid.

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#44 misterE

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:19 PM

And how many become depressed or hormone deficient (or infertile) due to lack of fatty acids in the diet and low cholesterol (associated with higher mortality).



Actually vegan men have 16% higher testosterone levels compared to meat eaters [1]. High cholesterol is a common feature in men with erectile dysfunction [2-4]. And total-cholesterol is negatively associated with testosterone levels in men [5], that is: the lower your cholesterol, the higher your testosterone.





How many become fat like the commercial cattle whose feed can best be described as - --- grain based.


Cows and pigs have a great ability to convert carbohydrates and fiber into calorie-dense fats (a process called de novo lipogenesis) humans don't have the same ability, and conversion of carbohydrates into humans doesn't cause significant fat-gains [6-13] unlike eating fat.




[1] Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK.

[2] Int J Impot Res. 2005 Nov-Dec;17(6):523-6. The relationship between lipid profile and erectile dysfunction. Nikoobakht M, Nasseh H, Pourkasmaee M.

[3] J Urol. 2003 Jun;169(6):2262-4. Laboratory evaluations of erectile dysfunction: an evidence based approach. Bodie J.

[4] J Gend Specif Med. 2002 Nov-Dec;5(6):19-24. Prevalence of cardiovascular risk factors in erectile dysfunction. Walczak MK .


[5] J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Dec;77(6):1610-5. Relationship of sex hormones to lipids and lipoproteins in nondiabetic men. Haffner SM, Mykkänen L, Valdez RA.


[6] Eur J Clin Nutr. 1999 Apr;53 Suppl 1:S53-65. De novo lipogenesis in humans: metabolic and regulatory aspects. Hellerstein MK.


[7] Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7. Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.. Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T.


[8] Obes Res. 2003 Sep;11(9):1096-103. Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body and adipose tissue metabolism in humans. Minehira K, Bettschart V, Vidal H.


[9] Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Dec;74(6):737-46. De novo lipogenesis during controlled overfeeding with sucrose or glucose in lean and obese women. McDevitt RM, Bott SJ, Harding M.


[10] Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Nov;24(11):1413-8. Effects of short-term carbohydrate or fat overfeeding on energy expenditure and plasma leptin concentrations in healthy female subjects. Dirlewanger M, di Vetta V, Guenat E.


[11] Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Dec;74(6):737-46. De novo lipogenesis during controlled overfeeding with sucrose or glucose in lean and obese women. McDevitt RM, Bott SJ, Harding M.


[12] Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Dec;74(6):707-8. No common energy currency: de novo lipogenesis as the road less traveled.. Hellerstein MK.


[13] Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 Nov;7(6):623-8. Metabolic consequences of overfeeding in humans. Tappy L.


Edited by misterE, 24 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#45 Kevnzworld

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:35 PM


Potatoes fall into the moderately high to high ranges on the glycemic index



[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]But we shouldn't base our diets on the GI. For instance, if you were to eat a low-GI diet, you would be better off eating a stick of butter than a carrot. You would be better off eating table-sugar than a baked potato. You would be better off eating bacon grease than baked-beans! Plus cultures that eat high-GI diets like the Asians eating white-rice (a refined carb) do much better than us (Americans) eating low-GI meats, fats and sugars, in terms of health, looks and longevity.

Saturated-fat and fructose are both low-GI, but are notorious for causing insulin-resistance. Whole-grains, which are higher GI than meat, cheese and sugar, are known for their insulin-sensitizing effects.


It's far more complicated than that. Whole grains are healthy ( insulin sensitizing ) partially because of their fiber content. A diet " centered on potatoes " as you advocated is not a healthy one and would promote insulin resistance.
It isn't an either or proposition. Butter, or potatoes. Lard or white rice. Regardless of the GI, none are healthy in elevated amounts.
I believe that dietary fat is healthy in moderate amounts. I choose olive oil. Others make a persuasive case for saturated fat ( http://high-fat-nutr...n.blogspot.com/ ).
What makes the Mediterranean diet healthy is its mix of meat ,vegetables ,olive oil and red wine.
I believe that eliminating dietary fat entirely is extreme and unhealthy except possibly for those with severe pre existing arterial damage and endothelial dysfunction .
I get a comprehensive blood test semi annually including http://www.bhlinc.com/

Edited by Kevnzworld, 24 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#46 misterE

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:45 PM



It's far more complicated than that. Whole grains are healthy ( insulin sensitizing ) partially because of their fiber content. A diet " centered on potatoes " as you advocated is not a healthy one and would promote insulin resistance.


Low-fat/high-complex carbohydrate diets are known to promote insulin sensitivity. Potatoes are the lowest fat food there is (at 1%) and extremely high in complex-carbohydrates. They also have a high fiber to fat ratio, which helps promote insulin-sensitivity. They also are low in fructose (which can be problematic).

I believe that eliminating dietary fat entirely is extreme and unhealthy except possibly for those with severe pre existing arterial damage and endothelial dysfunction .


OK, but most people (including children) living in countries exposed to the western-diet, do in fact have the disease. Autopsies of adults and children killed in auto accidents shows that atherosclerosis is virtually a universal disease in people living in westernized developed countries.



Like I said before, when Asians eat less rice (high-GI) and eat more animal-fat and sugar (Low-GI), like they do when they migrate from their native land to the USA, they quickly develop diabetes:


Diabetes Care. 1979 Mar-Apr;2(2):161-70.

Diabetes mellitus and its vascular complications in Japanese migrants on the Island of Hawaii.

Kawate R, Yamakido M, Nishimoto Y, Bennett PH, Hamman RF, Knowler WC.

Abstract
Japanese migrants and their offspring on the island of Hawaii and Japanese living in Hiroshima were examined for diabetes mellitus and its vascular complications. the same methods and investigators were used in both locations. Death certificates of Japanese and Caucasians dying on the island during the past 26 yr were analyzed. Diabetes, defined as a venous serum glucose concentration of at least 200 mg/dl 2 h after a 50-g oral glucose load, was significantly more common in the Hawaiian Japanese than in the Hiroshima Japanese subjects. This suggests that diabetes is more prevalent in Japanese in Hawaii than in Japan, although lack of knowledge about the total population of Japanese migrants in Hawaii makes this generalization uncertain. The proportion of deaths attributed to diabetes was much higher in Japanese migrants and their offspring in Hawaii than in Japan. During the 1950s, the proportional death rate from diabetes was about half as large in Japanese Hawaiians as in Caucasian Hawaiians, but it increased to become 1.6 times the Caucasian rate during the 1970s. A nutritional study revealed that the total caloric intake was similar in Japanese in Hawaii and Hiroshima, although the estimated level of physical activity was less in the Hawaiian subjects. Consumption of animal fat and simple carbohydrates (sucrose and fructose) were at least twice as high in Hawaiian as in Hiroshima Japanese. Conversely, Hiroshima Japanese consumed about twice the amount of complex carbohydrate as the Hawaiian Japanese. These observations support the hypothesis that a high fat, high simple carbohydrate, low complex carbohydrate diet and/or reduced levels of physical activity increase risk of diabetes. The proportion of deaths attributed to ischemic heart disease was higher in both diabetic and nondiabetic Japanese Hawaiians than in diabetic subjects in Japan. The rates were similar for Japanese and Caucasians in Hawaii. There was no evidence of an environmental influence on the development of microangiopathy (retinopathy) in diabetes, as the prevalence of diabetic retinopathy (stratified for diabetes duration) was similar in Japanese subjects in Hawaii and in Japan, and it was similar to previous reports from England. On the other hand, diabetes alone did not appear to account for the greater prevalence of macroangiopathy in Hawaiian Japanese than in Hiroshima. Thus environmental factors, possibly including diet, appear to be involved in the development of macrovascular complications of diabetes.


Edited by misterE, 24 February 2013 - 06:51 PM.

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#47 Kevnzworld

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

" Consumption of animal fat and simple carbohydrates (sucrose and fructose) were at least twice as high in Hawaiian as in Hiroshima Japanese. Conversely, Hiroshima Japanese consumed about twice the amount of complex carbohydrate as the Hawaiian Japanese. These observations support the hypothesis that a high fat, high simple carbohydrate, low complex carbohydrate diet and/or reduced levels of physical activity increase risk of diabetes".

That is obvious. I don't know who here is promoting a high fat, high sugar, low complex carb diet! It should be noted that many Asian diets have a relatively large amount of oil in them. It's the basis of wok cooking. They have lower rates of CVD..
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#48 ta5

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

How low of fat are these doctors recommending? I hope the diets are not deficient in essential fatty acids. LPI says adult men should get at least 17 grams of Omega 6 and 1.6 grams Omega 3.

Edited by ta5, 24 February 2013 - 07:13 PM.


#49 zorba990

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

OK, but most people (including children) living in countries exposed to the western-diet, do in fact have the disease. Autopsies of adults and children killed in auto accidents shows that atherosclerosis is virtually a universal disease in people living in westernized developed countries.


Most likely an issue of ascorbate deficiency. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11500168
This is made worse by eating high glycemic foods like potatoes. If in doubt then measure your blood sugar after eating just a baked potato and after eating a more sensible meal.

Low fat diets also close down the bile detoxification pathway which will increase liver complications.
From http://forum.lowcarb...p/t-441766.html

Studies of extreme low fat diets

http://www.kostdokto...12/03/galla.jpg (http://www.kostdokto...12/03/galla.jpg)

In a study of 51 obese people using an extremely low fat low calorie diet (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2669662) (just one gram of fat a day!) the gallbladder was examined by ultrasound before the diet and after one and two months. After one month four of the 51 participants had developed new gallstones. After two months more than one in four (13 people) had new gallstones! This on an almost fat free diet. Three participants needed to have their gallbladder removed during the study.


A similar study examined 19 people (http://www.nejm.org/...198812153192403) eating an extremely low fat low calorie diet over 16 weeks. At the ultrasound examination at the end of the study five people (again about one in four) had new gallstones.


A third study (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9665682) compared an extremely low fat diet with a diet slightly higher in fat during 3 months. More than one in two (6 of 11 people) in the group eating extremely low fat developed new gallstones. Nobody in the group eating more fat did.
Conclusion: Do you want gallstones? Avoid fat.



Grains increase inflammation
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2821887/
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#50 ta5

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:24 PM

There was a good thread on this topic on the CR list back in August.

http://arc.crsociety...1594#msg-211594

It's a long thread, just is just one post...

Re: Eggs shown to be almost as bad as smoking.
Posted by: Michael Rae
Date: August 20, 2012 05:12AM

All:

jwwright wrote:
> Thanks, for the link, Ruud,
> But don't you think we have ample evidence from Ornish's studies?
> Low fat lacto veg diet, and add fish.
> Tests with humans.

LOUSY tests with humans, as has been pointed out repeatedly: the
apparent benefits reported in the treatment group in Ornish's studies
are not demonstrably related to the diet, let alone demonstrably better
than a diet higher in healthy (vs saturated or trans-) fat: his
intervention not only included lower saturated fat intake (which is of
course achievable with a diet high in mono- and polyunsaturated fats),
but also a "vegetarian diet, aerobic exercise, stress management
training, smoking cessation, [and] group psychosocial support" (1), none
of which were administered to the controls.

It mysteriously got no play on the List, but there's now much
higher-quality (larger, properly controlled, unconfounded, longer)
evidence that *Atkins* reverses atherosclerosis than Ornish provided in
his studies for his low-fat nearly-vegetarian diet: "After 2 years of
dietary intervention, we observed a significant 5% regression in mean
carotid [vessel wall volume] (−58.1 mm3; 95% confidence interval, −81.0
to −35.1 mm3; P<0.001), with no differences in the low-fat,
Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate groups [ -- at least, statistically;
[but see the raw, if NS different, numbers: "a change of *−60.69* mm3
(95% CI, −97.34 to −24.02 mm3) in the low-fat, −37.69 mm3 (95% CI,
−77.19 to 1.80 mm3) in the Mediterranean, and *−84.33* mm3(95% CI,
−129.97 to −38.69 mm3) in the low-carbohydrate diet groups (P=0.28
between groups). "(2)


-Michael

1. Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Brown SE, Gould KL, Merritt TA,
Sparler S, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, Kirkeeide RL, Hogeboom C, Brand RJ.
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Free Full Text Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary
heart disease.
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#51 misterE

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:04 PM

How low of fat are these doctors recommending?


They recommend no more than 10-15% fat, and to limit fruit to 3 per day (because simple-sugar can increase triglycerides). They both recommend flax-seeds which provide the essential fats.

#52 niner

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

I was talking about the Spanish cohort of the EPIC study, in which it was found that over a long followup period, greater consumption of olive oil resulted in lower mortality.


Probably because it was compared to butter or margarine. Sure olive oil will reduce mortality if you substitute it for butter or lard. But no oil (or extremely low amounts) is optimal for overall longevity (in my opinion).


It wasn't being compared to other fat sources. It was based on the absolute daily consumption of olive oil, and more was better. Olive oil isn't just triglycerides; it contains some very beneficial polyphenols, which is probably what results in lower mortality risk. You might want to at least entertain the possibility that your opinion is in error where olive oil is concerned.

#53 Adaptogen

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

i don't normally quote npr but i saw this was posted today
http://www.npr.org/b...mpaign=20130225

Edited by Adaptogen, 25 February 2013 - 10:38 PM.

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#54 Kevnzworld

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

Re : The Mediterranean diet and olive oil
Quote: Mutual adjustment between olive oil and vegetables, which are frequently consumed together, indicated that olive oil has the dominant beneficial effect on arterial blood pressure in this population."
http://ajcn.nutritio...80/4/1012.short

#55 Hebbeh

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:31 AM

Another reference to the study Adaptogen posted:

http://consumer.heal....asp?AID=673785


Another Study Says Mediterranean Diet Good for the Heart

It beat a low-fat eating plan in helping high-risk people avoid cardiovascular problems

By Kathleen Doheny
HealthDay Reporter
MONDAY, Feb. 25 (HealthDay News) -- Score another heart-health win for the Mediterranean diet.
Eating a diet rich in olive oil, nuts, fresh fruits and vegetables, along with red wine, helped those at high risk for cardiovascular problems avoid heart trouble better than those eating a low-fat diet, a new Spanish study has found.
During a follow-up period of about five years, study participants on a Mediterranean diet that emphasized either olive oil or nuts had a 30 percent greater reduction in relative risk of a heart attack, stroke or death from cardiovascular disease, said study lead author Dr. Miguel Angel Martinez-Gonzalez. He is chairman of preventive medicine and public health at the Universidad de Navarra in Spain.
"This is a moderate-to-high benefit," he said. "The low-fat diet also helped, but to a lesser degree."
The new findings are published online Feb. 25 in the New England Journal of Medicine. They will also be presented Monday at the International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition in Loma Linda, Calif.
The findings echo those from previous research.
Martinez-Gonzalez's team evaluated nearly 7,500 men and women. They ranged in age from 55 to 80 when they enrolled in the study, which began in Spain in 2003. Fifty-seven percent of the participants were women.
While the men and women had no history of heart attack or stroke or other cardiovascular problems at enrollment, they did have risk factors such as type 2 diabetes, smoking, high blood pressure or high cholesterol.
The researchers assigned the men and women to one of three groups -- a low-fat diet, a Mediterranean diet that focused on nuts or a Mediterranean diet that focused on olive oil.
On average, the men and women were overweight or obese. In all three groups, the average body-mass index was 30 or close to it, which is defined as obese.
The olive oil group consumed about a liter -- roughly 34 ounces -- of olive oil a week. The nuts group ate about one ounce of nuts a day, including walnuts, hazelnuts and almonds. Members of both groups also ate plenty of fruits and vegetables, as well as fish, and drank wine with meals. They could have white meat but were told to avoid red and processed meats.
The low-fat group ate low-fat dairy, breads, potatoes, fruits and vegetables and lean fish. They were told to avoid oils, baked goods, nuts, red and processed meat and fatty fish.
At the end of the study, 288 cardiovascular events had occurred. While 109 of those events occurred in the low-fat group, 96 were in the group that ate a Mediterranean diet with olive oil, and 83 were in the Mediterranean diet-with-nuts group.
When the researchers looked separately at stroke, heart attack and death, only the link between the Mediterranean diet and stroke was statistically significant. The researchers found a link between the diets and heart protection, but it did not prove cause and effect, they said.
So why does the Mediterranean diet seem to boost heart health? Martinez-Gonzalez said it's probably the combination of good-quality fats -- both monounsaturated like olive oil and polyunsaturated like vegetable oils -- and the wide range of other nutrients.
The findings came as no surprise to two U.S. experts.
"I think this is demonstrating again, conclusively, that this is the diet to go on to prevent heart disease," said Dr. Suzanne Steinbaum, director of women and heart disease at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City, and a spokeswoman for the American Heart Association's Go Red for Women campaign.
The 30 percent reduction in relative risk, she said, is ''significant."
Alice Lichtenstein, the Stanley Gershoff Professor of Nutrition Science and Policy at Tufts University in Boston, said the new findings are "confirming what we have been saying all along." The findings are strong, she said, due to the number of people studied and the length of the follow-up.
"Essentially, they confirmed what the current recommendations from the American Heart Association and the U.S. Dietary Guidelines are saying," added Lichtenstein, who's also a spokeswoman for the American Heart Association.
However, she said, ''the results of this study do not provide a license to start snacking on nuts or adding nuts to salads and yogurt without taking something out of the diet that has an equivalent number of calories. The same goes for olive oil."
Steinbaum added: "Every time you use butter, just use olive oil instead. Instead of snacking on popcorn, have some nuts."
The California Walnut Commission is a sponsor of the Congress. One study researcher is on the commission's board. Another has received grants from the International Nut and Dried Fruit Council. The Spanish government funded the research.
More information
To learn more about the Mediterranean diet, visit the American Heart Association.
SOURCES: Miguel Martinez-Gonzalez, M.D., Ph.D., professor and chair, preventive medicine and public health, Universidad de Navarra, Spain; Alice Lichtenstein, Stanley Gershoff Professor of Nutrition Science and Policy, Tufts University, Boston, and spokeswoman, American Heart Association; Suzanne Steinbaum, D.O., director, Women and Heart Disease, Lenox Hill Hospital, New York City, and spokeswoman, American Heart Association; Feb. 25, 2013, New England Journal of Medicine, online; Feb. 25, 2013, presentation, International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, Loma Linda, Calif.

http://www.scienceda...30225181536.htm


Mediterranean Diet Helps Cut Risk of Heart Attack, Stroke: Results of PREDIMED Study Presented


Feb. 25, 2013 — Results of the PREDIMED study, aimed at assessing the efficacy of the Mediterranean diet in the primary prevention of cardiovascular diseases, have been published in The New England Journal of Medicine. They show that the Mediterranean diet supplemented with extra-virgin olive oil or tree nuts reduces by 30 percent the risk of suffering a cardiovascular death, a myocardial infarction or a stroke.

The study has been coordinated by the researcher Ramon Estruch, from the Faculty of Medicine of the UB and the Hospital Clínic -- affiliated centres with the health campus of the UB, HUBc -- and has had the collaboration of the professor Rosa M. Lamuela and her team from the Natural Antioxidant Research Group of the Faculty of Pharmacy -- located at the campus of international excellence BKC -- which determined the biomarkers of Mediterranean diet consumption.
The research is part of the project PREDIMED, a multicentre trial carried out between 2003 and 2011 to study the effects of the Mediterranean diet on the primary prevention of cardiovascular diseases. The study was funded by the Carlos III Health Institute by means of the cooperative research thematic network (RETIC RD06/0045) and the CIBER of Physiopathology of Obesity and Nutrition (CIBERobn).
A total of 7,447 people following major cardiovascular risk factors participated in the study. They were divided into three dietary intervention groups: a Mediterranean diet supplemented with extra-virgin olive oil, a Mediterranean diet supplemented with nuts (walnuts, almonds, hazelnuts), and a low-fat diet (animal and vegetable). A dietician visited the patients every three months and they attended dietary training group sessions, in which they received detailed information about the Mediterranean and the low-fat diet, and the food included in each one. Moreover, they were provided with shopping lists, menus and recipes adapted to each type of diet and each season of the year.
During the study, those participants who followed any of the two types of Mediterranean diet received freely extra-virgin olive oil (one litre per week), and nuts (30 grams per day; 15 grams of walnuts, 7.5 grams of almonds and 7.5 grams of hazelnuts).
After five years, it has been proved that participants who followed any of the two types of Mediterranean diet showed a substantial reduction in the risk of suffering a cardiovascular death, a myocardial infarction or a stroke.
According to the researchers, the results of PREDIMED study are relevant as they prove that a high-vegetable fat diet is healthier at a cardiovascular level than a low-fat diet. The authors state that the study has been controversial as it provides new data to reject the idea that it is necessary to reduce fats in order to improve cardiovascular health.
Hopefully, these results will provide new references to prevent cardiovascular diseases. In addition, the design and methodology used can be easily transferred to the biomedical sector.
The study had the collaboration of several researchers from the Hospital Clínic, the Hospital del Mar Medical Research Institute (IMIM), the faculties of Medicine of the universities Rovira i Virgili, Navarra, Valencia, Canary Islands and Malaga, as well as the University Hospital Son Espases of Palma, the Fats Institute in Seville, and the primary health care networks of Barcelona, Seville, Tarragona and Valencia.


Journal Reference:
  • Ramón Estruch, Emilio Ros, Jordi Salas-Salvadó, Maria-Isabel Covas, D.Pharm., Dolores Corella, Fernando Arós, Enrique Gómez-Gracia, Valentina Ruiz-Gutiérrez, Miquel Fiol, José Lapetra, Rosa Maria Lamuela-Raventos, Lluís Serra-Majem, Xavier Pintó, Josep Basora, Miguel Angel Muñoz, José V. Sorlí, José Alfredo Martínez, Miguel Angel Martínez-González. Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet. New England Journal of Medicine, 2013; 130225030008006 DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1200303



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#56 niner

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:23 PM

On average, the men and women were overweight or obese. In all three groups, the average body-mass index was 30 or close to it, which is defined as obese.
The olive oil group consumed about a liter -- roughly 34 ounces -- of olive oil a week.


What's that, about 900 Calories a day from olive oil? I seriously doubt it. I read somewhere else that it was a quarter of a cup (2 fl oz, ~60 ml) a day. Typical Science Reporting fail... I had not realized that these were all fat people.

I hope this study doesn't raise demand for EVOO too much- it's already hard enough to get good stuff.

#57 johnross47

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

http://www.scienceda...30225181536.htm

Story on Science Daily today...also in today's edition of The Guardian. (intelligent UK newspaper)

Another study of 3 diets in a population with identified CV risks but no events at the start of the study.

The Mediterranean type diets supplemented with either nuts or EVOO produced better health than a low fat diet.

Is the original report available?

#58 niner

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:55 PM

Is the original report available?


It's two posts up (Hebbeh's post), linked at the bottom of the post.

#59 johnross47

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

I was in a bit of a hurry and skipped the last few posts. Saw it later.

#60 zorba990

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:05 AM

http://www.scienceda...30225181536.htm

Story on Science Daily today...also in today's edition of The Guardian. (intelligent UK newspaper)

Another study of 3 diets in a population with identified CV risks but no events at the start of the study.

The Mediterranean type diets supplemented with either nuts or EVOO produced better health than a low fat diet.

Is the original report available?


Great to see more evidence. Tired of reading of the conventional "put a cork in the liver" methods (through drugs or fat restriction).





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