71 replies to this topic

[Athene Noctua]

So, the diet we've been eating for millennia is suddenly deleterious to health…?! Of COURSE it is… You do realise studies like these are usually funded by Big Pharma, don't you…?

Do your research. Tribes which eat a typically palaeolithic LCHF diet (the Inuit for example) are typically free of Western disease, and live long lives, whilst those who consume a vegan - or almost - vegan - diet have severely curtailed lifespans (I thought this forum was concerned with the pursuit of longevity…?)

Humans can live without plants, but we CANNOT live without animal products. There's not a SINGLE NUTRIENT we can obtain from plants that we can't obtain in more ample quantities - and in more bioavailable forms from animal foods (liver is probably the most nutritious food on Earth, aside from eggs).

A plant-based diet IS NOT compatible with longevity. It is HIGHLY nutrient-deficient, completely devoid of B12, and deficient in most other nutrients.

ANY study you read which claims that eating meat - or any other animal products - is NOT going to be unbiased, and is likely to have been conducted by Big Pharma. ALL independent studies - BAR NONE - show the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Remember, Big Pharma has a vested interest in you becoming - and remaining - sick…

[theconomist]

So, the diet we've been eating for millennia is suddenly deleterious to health…?! Of COURSE it is… You do realise studies like these are usually funded by Big Pharma, don't you…?

Do your research. Tribes which eat a typically palaeolithic LCHF diet (the Inuit for example) are typically free of Western disease, and live long lives, whilst those who consume a vegan - or almost - vegan - diet have severely curtailed lifespans (I thought this forum was concerned with the pursuit of longevity…?)

Humans can live without plants, but we CANNOT live without animal products. There's not a SINGLE NUTRIENT we can obtain from plants that we can't obtain in more ample quantities - and in more bioavailable forms from animal foods (liver is probably the most nutritious food on Earth, aside from eggs).

A plant-based diet IS NOT compatible with longevity. It is HIGHLY nutrient-deficient, completely devoid of B12, and deficient in most other nutrients.

ANY study you read which claims that eating meat - or any other animal products - is NOT going to be unbiased, and is likely to have been conducted by Big Pharma. ALL independent studies - BAR NONE - show the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Remember, Big Pharma has a vested interest in you becoming - and remaining - sick…

http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

the rest of your post is just nonesense, you're on the wrong forum to try this kind of thing mate : most people here are knowledgeable on the subject. Our main debate isn't really about eating an animal protein rich diet or not, it's abotu wether you should eat any at all. Even the defenders of animal protein know that it has to be limited, question is to what degree. PS: big farm lobby exists too and trust me, they're not pushing for more organic arugula oh and let's give you the benefit of the doubt: why would big pharma promote a diet which has shown to reduce the need for it's very existence?

Edited by theconomist, 15 March 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[niner]

So, the diet we've been eating for millennia is suddenly deleterious to health…?! Of COURSE it is… You do realise studies like these are usually funded by Big Pharma, don't you…?
...
ANY study you read which claims that eating meat - or any other animal products - is NOT going to be unbiased, and is likely to have been conducted by Big Pharma. ALL independent studies - BAR NONE - show the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Remember, Big Pharma has a vested interest in you becoming - and remaining - sick…

What's your evidence that Big Pharma funds a majority of these studies? I don't believe that's correct. Conspiracy theories usually aren't.

[dankis]

(1)http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

the rest of your post is just nonesense, you're on the wrong forum to try this kind of thing mate : most people here are knowledgeable on the subject. (2)Our main debate isn't really about eating an animal protein rich diet or not, it's abotu wether you should eat any at all. Even the defenders of animal protein know that it has to be limited, question is to what degree. PS: big farm lobby exists too and trust me, they're not pushing for more organic arugula oh and let's give you the benefit of the doubt: why would big pharma promote a diet which has shown to reduce the need for it's very existence?

1. If we are talking about something related to evolution then occurrence of given factor over long period of time is VERY IMPORTANT because of an adaptation mechanism. Earlier in this topic I have proven that humans are genetically predisposed to eat meat.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Adaptation

2. Bullcrap. No one replied to me with evidence that animal protein is harmful on non-dairy low PUFA ketogenic (very low carbohydrate) diet.

[theconomist]

(1)http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

the rest of your post is just nonesense, you're on the wrong forum to try this kind of thing mate : most people here are knowledgeable on the subject. (2)Our main debate isn't really about eating an animal protein rich diet or not, it's abotu wether you should eat any at all. Even the defenders of animal protein know that it has to be limited, question is to what degree. PS: big farm lobby exists too and trust me, they're not pushing for more organic arugula oh and let's give you the benefit of the doubt: why would big pharma promote a diet which has shown to reduce the need for it's very existence?

1. If we are talking about something related to evolution then occurrence of given factor over long period of time is VERY IMPORTANT because of an adaptation mechanism. Earlier in this topic I have proven that humans are genetically predisposed to eat meat.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Adaptation

2. Bullcrap. No one replied to me with evidence that animal protein is harmful on non-dairy low PUFA ketogenic (very low carbohydrate) diet.

The science is there you just chose to ignore it. Again you seem to miss the point, on this website we're not looking at going with the flow of evolution, we're trying to beat it.

[Vardarac]

Do your research. Tribes which eat a typically palaeolithic LCHF diet (the Inuit for example) are typically free of Western disease, and live long lives, whilst those who consume a vegan - or almost - vegan - diet have severely curtailed lifespans (I thought this forum was concerned with the pursuit of longevity…?)

The examples I have seen for your argument almost invariably have some health=promoting behavior attached to their diets. The Masai, for example, may move around several miles a day. I also looked into the "Inuit paradox", as it has commonly been called, and found no evidence for it. In fact, there is reason, according to one meta-analysis by , to believe that it is nothing more than a well-propagated myth.

A plant-based diet IS NOT compatible with longevity. It is HIGHLY nutrient-deficient, completely devoid of B12, and deficient in most other nutrients.

As others have said, feel free to point out examples. Many leafy greens are excellent sources of minerals; enriched yeast contains b12; vegans apparently are able to reach omega-3 homeostasis at potentially better levels than even fish eaters (Welch AA et al. 2010).

I'm personally loath to go vegan, but I don't think you have a case.

[blood]

New correlational research links higher consumption of protein in the elderly, and delayed decline of "functional capacities":
http://www.nutraingr...ctional-decline

[Chupo]

It's possible to do a low animal keto diet. These are my latest tweaks as I'm reducing my animal intake. The only animal is liver once a week for B12 and retinol (I am a poor carotene converter). Net carbs are less than 40 grams and I am in ketosis eating this way. The raw potato inflates the carb count. They are actually mostly resistant starch (80%) for which I eat them. Choline is low but betaine isn't shown so that may make up for it. Manganese is a little high. Don't know if that would be a problem or not.

[LexLux]

(1)http://en.wikipedia....al_to_tradition

the rest of your post is just nonesense, you're on the wrong forum to try this kind of thing mate : most people here are knowledgeable on the subject. (2)Our main debate isn't really about eating an animal protein rich diet or not, it's abotu wether you should eat any at all. Even the defenders of animal protein know that it has to be limited, question is to what degree. PS: big farm lobby exists too and trust me, they're not pushing for more organic arugula oh and let's give you the benefit of the doubt: why would big pharma promote a diet which has shown to reduce the need for it's very existence?

1. If we are talking about something related to evolution then occurrence of given factor over long period of time is VERY IMPORTANT because of an adaptation mechanism. Earlier in this topic I have proven that humans are genetically predisposed to eat meat.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Adaptation

2. Bullcrap. No one replied to me with evidence that animal protein is harmful on non-dairy low PUFA ketogenic (very low carbohydrate) diet.

I already provided you specific studies linking low carb, high animal protein diets increased mortality. I will post these again together with a few more to drive the point home. All you did was bring up an unfortunate genetic deficiency affecting a minority of the population.

• Fung TT, van Dam RM, Hankinson SE, Stampfer M, Willett WC, Hu FB. Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause and cause-specific mortality: two cohort studies. Ann Intern Med. 2010 Sep 7;153(5):289-98.

• Jenkins DJ, Wong JM, Kendall CW, Esfahani A, Ng VW, Leong TC, Faulkner DA, Vidgen E, Greaves KA, Paul G, Singer W. The effect of a plant-based low-carbohydrate (

• H. Noto, A. Goto, T. Tsujimoto, M. Noda. Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause mortality: A systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies. PLoS ONE 2013 8(1):e55030.

Just look at what you're doing to your arteries and heart:

• J. Merino, R. Kones, R. Ferré, N. Plana, J. Girona, G. Aragonés, D. Ibarretxe, M. Heras, L. Masana. Negative effect of a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet on small peripheral artery reactivity in patients with increased cardiovascular risk. Br. J. Nutr. 2013 109(7):1241 - 1247.
• R. M. Fleming, L. B. Boyd. The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow. Angiology 2000 51(10):817 - 826.
• F. L. Santos, S. S. Esteves, A. da Costa Pereira, W. S. Yancy Jr, J. P. L. Nunes. Systematic review and meta-analysis of clinical trials of the effects of low carbohydrate diets on cardiovascular risk factors. Obes Rev 2012 13(11):1048 - 1066.
• L. Schwingshackl, G. Hoffmann. Low-carbohydrate diets impair flow-mediated dilatation: Evidence from a systematic review and meta-analysis. Br. J. Nutr. 2013 110(5):969 - 970.

• R. M. Fleming. Reversing heart disease in the new millennium--the Fleming unified theory. Angiology 2000 51(8):617 - 629.

Edited by LexLux, 21 March 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[misterE]

The research is clear and consistent.

This study is just another confirmation that a high-carb plant-based diet is healthier than the greasy meat-based American diet or even worse the most diabetogenic diet of them all: a ketogenic-diet; a surefire way to promote diabetes.

One of the symptoms of untreated diabetes is ketosis. And if the diabetes progresses, ketosis develops into ketoacidosis and this is not healthful whatsoever, in fact in can be deadly. How is someone supposed to get healthy by mimicking the effects of diabetes and starving their body of glucose?

Edited by misterE, 25 March 2014 - 04:28 AM.

[Vardarac]

Question for you Lex:

The general consensus among paleo dieters seems to be that dietary inflammation leads to pathology, but that any inflammation resulting from meat and fat intake can be tipped to a neutral or positive balance by the intake of anti-inflammatory substances (I might expand this idea to vasodilators and antioxidants) and engaging in regular physical activity with few to no sedentary periods. Is there any evidence that people who fall into this category (copious fruit/veg intake, little to high meat/fat intake, high exercise) are at any significant risk of heart disease?

If it helps, I'm aware that people have pointed out that epidemiological studies show that any fat intake increases statistical risk of heart disease. However, I think a mechanistic picture of how the dietary pieces fit together would be more enlightening for those of us who choose to continue eating meat/animal products - Were those that did suffer from increased CVD by eating fat/meat neglecting to eat the beneficial stuff?

Again, I'm not a paleo, but I bring this up because the "balance" hypothesis intrigues me. Meat-eating would in this scenario be rather different from smoking in that harmful effects originate from substances whose effects can be negated; but you can't clear debris and toxins in the lungs (perhaps there may be some degree of subversion from diet on smoking toxins, but I haven't consulted the literature on this nor am I interested in smoking).

Edited by Vardarac, 25 March 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

I agree that a vegan diet is the most healthy diet we can have. Human been is not designed to eat meat (digestive system, PH, teeths etc).

Also, never seen studies stating the natural hormone load of meat. The animal by nature has plenty hormones wich comes to the human when he eat meat: DHT, T, cortisol etc..

I came to a vegan diet since a few years now, and never been as good as im today