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Is nicotinamide riboside (NR) broken down into nicotinamide (NAM) before it's absorbed?

nmn david sinclair nad+ nadh niacin niagen nad

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#61 Bryan_S

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:14 PM

This seems to be the only thread where we are still openly discussing nicotinamide riboside (NR), nicotinamide (NAM), and lastly Niacin. All contribute to raising NAD levels and NR slips into the salvage cycle 2 steps away from NAD. In lue of the PK data from the (NR) study I'm still left wondering if we even at a gram per day of (NR) if thats truly enough? So I've been researching nicotinamide as so many of you have been discussing. After nearly 77 years of research everything points to toxicity in amounts over 3 grams per day. Niacin more so than nicotinamide because of its dependents on the liver. With NR I'm still way under that amount even if NR takes a more direct route and is less toxic at higher doses. (there is no toxicity data for NR) That really is the selling point isn't it, less toxic. So even if I increased my dose to 3 grams per day of (NR) which I cant afford wouldn't my body now be producing 3 grams a day of NAM from the NR? Wouldn't this be like taking toxic amounts of NAM anyway?

 

Bielefeld-Germany-2011_NAD-salvage.png

Is anyone else asking these questions? Why aren't we just building up higher and higher concentrations of NAM anyway if we're plugging NR into the salvage cycle? What is the truth about toxic nicotinamide levels?

 

Maybe one of our biochemist readers can answer this?

 

http://www.fda.gov/f...s/ucm260908.htm

 

One of the better overviews of nicotinamide studies and dose equivalents. Most of these studies indicate the upper limit one can tolerate to be around 3 grams per day but recommend not exceeding 900 mg for an adult. Some studies exceeded 3 grams per day but all studies were of limited duration.

http://ec.europa.eu/...f/out80j_en.pdf


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#62 Primal

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:03 PM

In lue of the PK data from the (NR) study I'm still left wondering if we even at a gram per day of (NR) if thats truly enough? 

 

Any news about when we can expect the full results of the PK study? I've been mostly MIA for the last few months 



Click HERE to rent this ad spot for the NAD+ forum to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#63 Bryan_S

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:35 PM

Last word I got was November on the PK results. I'm continuing on 1000 mg per day of NR and that was the highest dose in the PK study. So far no new body parts have grown, LOL but I seem to be able to do a little impact type training with my old injures and I'm not just managing inflammation anymore. Personally I thought they should have taken the study up to 3000 mg per day. In the mean time I'm going to try something Logic was talking about.  link    He brought it up in another thread and the more I thought about it the less I could ignore it as an obvious possibility looming right in our faces. He felt the NR was being broken down into NAM and D-Ribose and recombined to form NR. Either it is or it isn't, only one study seems to suggest it could be broken down so the data is lacking and all other oral administration studies since have gone straight to measuring blood serum levels and NR's Metabolites. So if there is anything to that I want to see if we can either augment our current NR along with the cheap stuff or replace it all together. So I should have 100 grams of Niacinamide and 135 grams of D-Ribose here shortly, all together it cost about 32 dollars. I chose to not go with a slow release NAM because there is no slow release ribose. I have found one company who specializes in mitochondria metabolite testing, any suggestions would help? https://www.gdx.net/...tion-test-urine

 

PM me if you want to talk, hope everything is OK?


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#64 Bryan_S

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:50 AM

 

In lue of the PK data from the (NR) study I'm still left wondering if we even at a gram per day of (NR) if thats truly enough? 

 

Any news about when we can expect the full results of the PK study? I've been mostly MIA for the last few months 

 

 

A few days ago there was a short blurb.

 

http://www.prnewswir...-281746221.html

 

 

Jaksch continued: "Separate clinical trials of both our NIAGEN™ nicotinamide riboside and PURENERGY™ caffeine alternative have been completed and data is currently being compiled and analyzed.  Coupled with other active collaborations with numerous leading universities and research institutes, we anticipate the results of these studies to be an incredible driver of consumer awareness for both ingredients." 

Recent Company highlights include:

  • In July 2014, ChromaDex announced the initiation of the first human clinical study for NIAGEN™ which is designed to determine the pharmacokinetics (PK) and bioavailability of NR as well as provide information about an effective dose range in humans. Most importantly, this study aims to confirm earlier animal studies conducted by various universities and research institutes, which showed that oral dosing of the compound results in an increased level of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) and NAD+ metabolites in the body.


#65 poolboy

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:44 PM

NIH Publishes Results of Preclinical Collaboration with ChromaDex Showing Potential Benefit of Nicotinamide Riboside
 

 

IRVINE, Calif.Dec. 10, 2014 /PRNewswire/ -- ChromaDex Corp.  (OTCQX: CDXC), announced today that the results of a mouse study performed in collaboration with ChromaDex by the National Institute on Aging (NIA), a member of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), were published in Cell Metabolism in November 2014. The results indicated that nicotinamide riboside (NR) was effective at restoring NAD+ levels in mitochondria and rescuing phenotypes associated with a devastating accelerated aging disease known as Cockayne Syndrome (CS).  The researchers concluded that NR showed promise as a potential therapy for the disease, as well as for other age-related neurodegenerative conditions. ChromaDex is an innovative natural products company that provides proprietary ingredients and science-based solutions to the dietary supplement, food and beverage, animal health, cosmetic and pharmaceutical industries.

CS is a rare genetic disorder that causes neurodegeneration, severe sensitivity to sunlight and failure to gain weight and grow at a normal rate. CS patients share the same neurodegenerative traits that are seen in many mitochondrial disorders and diseases associated with aging. Mitochondrial maintenance may be central in the aging process, and interventions that preserve mitochondrial function appear to extend the lifespan of model organisms.

NIH researchers commented in the publication: "As expected, old Csb mice had decreased NAD+ and ATP levels before treatment. Remarkably, a single week of treatment with NR completely normalized these levels." The researchers go on to speculate that NAD+ supplementation may prove to be beneficial for patients with CS who have no current treatment options.

Frank Jaksch, CEO and Founder of ChromaDex stated: "We are excited to have this collaboration with the NIH for NR and look forward to continuing this important research.  These early results are extremely encouraging and ChromaDex is evaluating the use of NR for rare pediatric diseases such as Cockayne Syndrome. We are also reviewing other therapeutic indications in which NR alone, or in combination, may be effective in treating or preventing disease. The NIH study and other preclinical studies conducted recently by independent researchers have consistently indicated that NR has a beneficial effect in a variety of disease conditions through its effectiveness in increasing NAD+."

ChromaDex's NIAGEN® is the first and only commercially available form of NR, a naturally occurring vitamin B3 derivative found in milk.  Published research has shown that NR is perhaps the most effective precursor to boost cellular levels of NAD+ and improve mitochondrial performance and energy.  NAD+ is essential in supporting healthy cellular metabolism including the efficient conversation of blood glucose into energy.

Read more at http://www.stockhous...j03ygp7IzzOA.99



#66 Bryan_S

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 09:19 PM

Thanks poolboy,

 

We started a new thread "http://www.longecity...ws-and-updates/" You can add any new developments in there that a relevant.



#67 dreamwolf

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:19 AM

Hey Bryan,

Did you ever get your NAM and ribose? Have you tried them yet?

#68 ceridwen

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:36 AM

This works very well for me. I am currently taking a lot of it. However I have a friend who can't digest milk and is suffering from neurodegenerative disease. Is there any form of NR that he could take?
This works very well for me. I am currently taking a lot of it. However I have a friend who can't digest milk and is suffering from neurodegenerative disease. Is there any form of NR that he could take?

#69 Logic

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:10 PM

 

Last word I got was November on the PK results. I'm continuing on 1000 mg per day of NR and that was the highest dose in the PK study. So far no new body parts have grown, LOL but I seem to be able to do a little impact type training with my old injures and I'm not just managing inflammation anymore. Personally I thought they should have taken the study up to 3000 mg per day. In the mean time I'm going to try something Logic was talking about.  link    He brought it up in another thread and the more I thought about it the less I could ignore it as an obvious possibility looming right in our faces. He felt the NR was being broken down into NAM and D-Ribose and recombined to form NR. Either it is or it isn't, only one study seems to suggest it could be broken down so the data is lacking and all other oral administration studies since have gone straight to measuring blood serum levels and NR's Metabolites. So if there is anything to that I want to see if we can either augment our current NR along with the cheap stuff or replace it all together. So I should have 100 grams of Niacinamide and 135 grams of D-Ribose here shortly, all together it cost about 32 dollars. I chose to not go with a slow release NAM because there is no slow release ribose. I have found one company who specializes in mitochondria metabolite testing, any suggestions would help? https://www.gdx.net/...tion-test-urine

 

PM me if you want to talk, hope everything is OK?

 

 

I have been concentrating on getting the GHK/GHK-Cu 'group buy' running smoothly and taking a break from studying all this as all the NR, NA, NAM, SIRT, PARP effects and feedback loops would likely have made my tiny mind explode!  :)

 

I am glad you are trying NAM and D-Ribose separately, but feel that possibly the secret to NR's success lies in the fact that its SLOWLY cleaved to NAM and Ribose in the gut, giving a nice slow and constant supply of both.

 

Ribose spikes are known to cause glycation issues even worse than those of Fructose. So while the studies on it show very positive and similar results to NR, I fear that large, intermittent  D-Ribose spikes would be bad in the long run.

 

Also I feel that NA/Niacin may be a better candidate than NAM as it feeds into the cycle in a similar place, but wont raise SIRT etc. restricting intracellular NAM levels.

 

I cant find any slow release D-Ribose and slow release NA is liver toxic.

Hence my idea to experiment with NA and D-Ribose dissolved in ones daily water quota and sipped throughout the day.

 

I will get the 2, try this and report back.

What are the amounts of each in the pills everyone is taking again?

 


Edited by Logic, 30 January 2015 - 12:11 PM.


#70 ceridwen

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:31 PM

NR changes the quality of my tinnitus. I think I might be thinking slightly more clearly too.



#71 Bryan_S

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 09:32 PM

 

I am glad you are trying NAM and D-Ribose separately, but feel that possibly the secret to NR's success lies in the fact that its SLOWLY cleaved to NAM and Ribose in the gut, giving a nice slow and constant supply of both.

 

Hence my idea to experiment with NA and D-Ribose dissolved in ones daily water quota and sipped throughout the day.

 

What are the amounts of each in the pills everyone is taking again?

 

 

I discontinued the D-Ribose but continued the nicotinamide. At first I discontinued both the D-Ribose and the nicotinamide and just kept the 1000mg of NR going. Within a 2 weeks I noticed a change in my skin. I have that celtic curse called rosacea and my skin started to suffer after I discontinued the nicotinamide. Part of that condition is acne and it's aggravated by an autoimmune response. I lost this benefit I had going and returned to the Nam. I believe if I could afford a full 3000mg of NR I wouldn't need the nicotinamide. 

 

I'm trying to open up and widen the pathway and can't afford to really megadose the NR alone. I take 1000mg of nicotinamide riboside in the morning. At the end of the day I take 2000mg nicotinamide. I don't have the 1/2 life tables with me as I write this but here is the idea. I want to keep the Krebs cycle as full as possible. As the NR 1/2-life runs down to a minimum I hit my system with the nicotinamide and by the time that is metabolized down to minimal levels I'm ready to take my nicotinamide riboside and the cycle repeats.

 

People are really coveting these SIRT1 and SIRT3 benefits with the NR. Personally if I cant see it of feel it its a non-item for me. Plus I'm not a small mammal, worm or yeast. To date no data can demonstrate that trying to maintain Sirtuin 1 and sirtuin 3 activation a full 24 hours per day will change my life or extend it. If I could afford to stay solely exclusive to NR I would give it a try but I can't.

 

As far as the D-Ribose and the nicotinamide theory from before I cant find any data to support that idea. None of the latest researchers suggest anything other than Nicotinic acid riboside (NaR) to be effective and it's only available in lab quantities.

 

At any rate that's my update and if you've followed my saga my legs are resembling normal again with no swelling and I'm back to skydiving and supporting my team. I'm writing from a skydiving meet now. 


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#72 M-K

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:16 PM

Bryan, how much ribose were you taking?



#73 Bryan_S

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 06:08 AM

Bryan, how much ribose were you taking?

 

3000mg per day along side the Nam. It didn't seem to add anything to the party.



#74 Logic

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 07:00 PM

So you were taking 2g of NAM with 3g of ribose in the evening and it did not add anything to the 1g of NR in the morning.

Hmmm...
I'm still going to try mixing NA (not NAM!!!) and R with water and sipping it throughout the day.
Maybe there will be some magic in dissolving the 2 in water together, or maybe the magic will be in NA rather than NAM, or probably in the 'slow release' if at all.

Edited by Logic, 04 February 2015 - 07:00 PM.

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#75 Bryan_S

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 11:11 PM

Keep us posted, if I could afford to really mega dose the NR you know I would. The (NaR) nicotinic acid riboside would also be a good test if we could find it at a reasonable price. 



#76 StevesPetRat

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:15 AM

Please feel free to move this comment if this isn't the "right" NR thread. Has anyone heard of a supplier planning to offer pure ChromaDex NR powder? How restrictive is ChromaDex in licensing it? I imagine that liposomal NR might make these concerns a moot point, but I wouldn't really want to mess with the capsules with fillers / powder with fiber added trying to make it.
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#77 Bryan_S

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:20 PM

So you were taking 2g of NAM with 3g of ribose in the evening and it did not add anything to the 1g of NR in the morning.

Hmmm...
I'm still going to try mixing NA (not NAM!!!) and R with water and sipping it throughout the day.
Maybe there will be some magic in dissolving the 2 in water together, or maybe the magic will be in NA rather than NAM, or probably in the 'slow release' if at all.

 

 

Keep us posted, if I could afford to really mega dose the NR you know I would. The (NaR) nicotinic acid riboside would also be a good test if we could find it at a reasonable price. 

 

Whatever you plan embrace it and stick with it for a month or 2. I gave the (D-Ribose NAM) / NR split-shift a full 60 days and started hearing people say what about the SIRT1 and SIRT3 benefits your shutting down with the NAM, so I stopped. Within 2 weeks my skin worsened and the rosacea returned with a vengeance. So to better isolate what was going on I resumed the regiment but without the D-Ribose and the skin benefits once again returned. So I can say, "for me" the D-Ribose made no appreciable change. Not everyone has a flag flying over their heads to say this is or is not working but unfortunately for me I do. In addition I do not take a number of supplements so the variables and interactions are few.



#78 sciwalk

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:12 AM

Found this study from, 1966, yes, that is right, 1966 in Japan.

http://www.jbc.org/c...6/3701.full.pdf

Secondly:  Excuse my ignorance, but, what happens to actual NAD+ in the intestinal tract?  Everyone talks about precursors to NAD+, what about NAD+ itself? (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide).



#79 Logic

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 10:47 AM

Found this study from, 1966, yes, that is right, 1966 in Japan.

http://www.jbc.org/c...6/3701.full.pdf

Secondly:  Excuse my ignorance, but, what happens to actual NAD+ in the intestinal tract?  Everyone talks about precursors to NAD+, what about NAD+ itself? (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide).

 

Hey Sciwalk  :)

Good to see you on the forums again.

(I found a vial of Epitalon in the bottom of the friend I bought with's freezer.  Woot!  :) 12 drops under the tongue as soon as it thawed and water/wine added.

 What is the procedure to buy from 'you' again?)

 

As I recall; NAD+ is broken down in the gut to NR plus something.

I believe the secret to NR is that its SLOWLY broken down in/by the stomach lining to Nam & R.
Its possible that these 2 are 'best friends' and get back together again as soon as they have crossed these sort of barriers though....?

As Nam is the end product in the NAD+ pathway and acts as a regulator of SIRT & especially PARP production (lots of Nam= slow slow SIRT & especially PARP production) I feel that slow release non amided B3 like Niacin=Nicotinic Acid (NA), plus slow release Ribose, is a better choice.

 

Tests have proved oral NR to be effective at increasing NAD+. but is this perhaps due to it not being used up for PARP (repairs DNA etc) production........??!

 

 


Edited by Logic, 10 February 2015 - 10:49 AM.


#80 sciwalk

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:02 AM

Can you please point me in the direction of studies showing what and where NAD+ gets broken down into in the digestive system.  I have searched now for over a year and cannot find anything on NAD+ itself, only on the precursors.  It can get rather confusing because I find that, especially supplement companies, tend to list their precursors as NAD+ but actually are not which tends to lead to misunderstanding for some as what they are actually taking or what is breaking down into what.



#81 midas

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:40 AM

Can you please point me in the direction of studies showing what and where NAD+ gets broken down into in the digestive system.  I have searched now for over a year and cannot find anything on NAD+ itself, only on the precursors.  It can get rather confusing because I find that, especially supplement companies, tend to list their precursors as NAD+ but actually are not which tends to lead to misunderstanding for some as what they are actually taking or what is breaking down into what.

 

Short 7 minute video exert from an up and coming documentary made by a forum member (to age or not to age) that you might find interesting....



#82 Bryan_S

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:39 PM

Can you please point me in the direction of studies showing what and where NAD+ gets broken down into in the digestive system.  I have searched now for over a year and cannot find anything on NAD+ itself, only on the precursors.  It can get rather confusing because I find that, especially supplement companies, tend to list their precursors as NAD+ but actually are not which tends to lead to misunderstanding for some as what they are actually taking or what is breaking down into what.

 

"The possibility exists that NR may be absorbed without further cleavage."

 

Who said that, the 1983 Gross & Henderson study said that. In fact it was already posted once before. Some doubt must have existed because they made this statement at the very top of the paper.

 

This was the paper which as far as I know is the only one to suggest its breakdown. I've questioned ChromaDex and Dr. Brenner and they say this study was in error. I take it sublingually just in case. 

 

1983 study

http://jn.nutrition..../2/412.full.pdf


Edited by Bryan_S, 10 February 2015 - 08:48 PM.


#83 Logic

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:25 PM

Can you please point me in the direction of studies showing what and where NAD+ gets broken down into in the digestive system.  I have searched now for over a year and cannot find anything on NAD+ itself, only on the precursors.  It can get rather confusing because I find that, especially supplement companies, tend to list their precursors as NAD+ but actually are not which tends to lead to misunderstanding for some as what they are actually taking or what is breaking down into what.


http://jn.nutrition..../113/2/412.long

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=690504
and posts further down.

#84 Logic

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:42 PM

Can you please point me in the direction of studies showing what and where NAD+ gets broken down into in the digestive system.  I have searched now for over a year and cannot find anything on NAD+ itself, only on the precursors.  It can get rather confusing because I find that, especially supplement companies, tend to list their precursors as NAD+ but actually are not which tends to lead to misunderstanding for some as what they are actually taking or what is breaking down into what.

 
"The possibility exists that NR may be absorbed without further cleavage."
 
Who said that, the 1983 Gross & Henderson study said that. In fact it was already posted once before. Some doubt must have existed because they made this statement at the very top of the paper.
 
This was the paper which as far as I know is the only one to suggest its breakdown. I've questioned ChromaDex and Dr. Brenner and they say this study was in error. I take it sublingually just in case. 
 
1983 study
http://jn.nutrition..../2/412.full.pdf


Sigh....

Some doubt did exist, which is why they went to the trouble of doing the study. Having done the study there was no longer any doubt that NR was NOT absorbed without further cleavage.

ie: We think that "The possibility exists that NR may be absorbed without further cleavage." So we are going to do a study to find out.
Study-study-study...
Nope we have now found and proved that in fact NR wis NOT absorbed without further cleavage.
It is in fact cleaved to Nam and Ribose.

The above is really not difficult to understand Bryan.
You do studies to find out if what you think is happening actually does happen.
If it does not; you figure out what does actually happen and report it.

Here is a previous post on this which you chose to completely ignore. (Or did you just not understand it?)
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=690870

and yet another:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=690972

Let me put it yet another way:
I think the sun is up?
Let me go check....
Nope the lights are on. (but nobodies home)
:)

Edited by Logic, 10 February 2015 - 09:44 PM.

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#85 Bryan_S

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 06:55 PM

Logic,

 

Find one other study in the last 32 years that says its broken down. It fly's in the face of the research conducted over the last decade.

 

Today there was another press release from ChromaDex touting NR's ability to raise NAD levels. If what you say is true, consuming nicotinamide and D-ribose together should produce the same affects. I ran this test for 60-days with a 2 week washout period at the end. Other than the benefits the nicotinamide conveyed the D-ribose added nothing to the party. If you have a better and more direct way to approach this than have at it. Remember if I'd discounted or ignored your comments I'd never have tried examining this question in such detail.

 

​Logic I consider you a board friend and I respect your comments. You know I have examined this question from every available angle and I created this board to work out this very question. Something about taking nicotinamide riboside conveys something that taking its constituents together can not. At this point we can no longer argue the lab results because so many studies have corroborated the effects of nicotinamide riboside. Also keep in mind just the other week one other respected scientist has "thrown his hat into the ring," Leonard Guarente with the creation of Elysium and the product Basis.

 

BASIS.jpg

 

The Anti-Aging Pill

 

Five Nobel laureates backing antiaging dietary supplement

 

I think our goals are one in the same and if we can find a cheaper way to produce the same results as NR you know I'm in. At 1000mg per day or a bottle per week I have the financial incentive to find a more affordable way to dose myself.


Edited by Bryan_S, 11 February 2015 - 06:57 PM.

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#86 Logic

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 09:22 AM

Logic,
 
Find one other study in the last 32 years that says its broken down. It fly's in the face of the research conducted over the last decade.


Thx Brian;  I consider you a board friend too, but sometimes its ones friends that you want grab by the throat and shake some sense into, as its them in particular you want to help.
The only way I could think of, of doing so via 'the printed word' was my above post.
 
As you yourself said;  no other studies exist that look at what happens to NAD/NR in the gut.
Find one other study in the last 32 years that says its NOT broken down!
It does NOT fly in the face of the research conducted over the last decade as all the research conveniently skips straight to intracellular and local extracellular pharmacology.

Assuming the one gut study to be incorrect based on studies that seem to be doing their best to avoid the subject is premature IMHO.

My argument that the secret NR may be the slow release of ribose into one's system still stands IMHO.
The "Something about taking nicotinamide riboside conveys something that taking its constituents together can not" Is still quite possibly the SLOW release of ribose into one's system.
This is why I recommended dissolving Ribose and Niacin, NB: not Nicotinamide, in one's daily drinking water.

Nicotinamid helping your skin condition is specific to you and probably point to you having an overzealous immune system, but it does look like some Nicotinanide is needed by everyone.
This is one of those things that needs more study.
 

"...Thus, PARP-1's functions are intimately tied to nuclear NAD+ metabolism and the broader metabolic profile of the cell. Recent studies in cell and animal models have highlighted the roles of PARP-1 and PAR in the response to a wide variety of extrinsic and intrinsic stress signals, including those initiated by oxidative, nitrosative, genotoxic, oncogenic, thermal, inflammatory, and metabolic stresses. These responses underlie pathological conditions, including cancer, inflammation-related diseases, and metabolic dysregulation..."
http://genesdev.cshl...5/417.full.html

"...poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP), an enzyme that utilizes NAD+ as a substrate to repair DNA...
...the mechanism by which NA and NAM protects cells against apoptosis does not involve a reduction in constitutive levels of oxidative stress...
...In the present study, we found that both NAD+ precursors were effective at preventing apoptosis, with NA consistently showing a greater protective effect. This could be explained by the fact that NAM is a weak PARP inhibitor, whereas NA has no effect on PARP activity...."
http://www.nature.co...l/4400658a.html

"...A growing set of published studies with PARP-1-deficient mice have revealed increased genome instability and sensitivity to genome toxic stress, a shorter life span with accelerated aging, earlier incidence of a wide spectrum of spontaneous tumors, and higher rates of malignant tumors in the liver, uterus, and lung..."
http://genesdev.cshl...5/417.full.html


Also; it recently occurred to me that Ribose taken as a standalone supplement may not get anywhere near our cells as stomach bacteria may metabolise most of it into plain glucose or similar:

"...However, many of the characterized strains can utilize ribose... but generally cannot ferment L-arabinose...Analysis of the ribose-induced transcriptome of B. breve UCC2003 revealed that the rbsACBDK gene cluster is responsible for the metabolism of ribose, a pentose sugar that can be found in the human gut..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3145055/


Taking standalone Ribose is going to result in the feeding of gut bacteria that aren't going to excrete it unchanged with a small amount making it into the system causing a short, AGE causing, ribose spike and then nothing for the rest of the day.
Perhaps liposomal encapsulation is the way to actually get Ribose into one's system, but I have no idea on how to get a sustained release of Ribose???
 
A stained release of Niacin and a little Nicotinamide in the right ratio is also required INHO.
How to achieve this sustained release and what ratio of Niacin too Nicotinamide is required is another question!
The ratio is probably specific to each individual.
 
In summary: 
Study and experimentation with liposomal ribose and Niacin/Niccotinamide in the correct ratio, in a form that gives a sustained release, is far from done.
Nicotinamide Riboside may be increasing SIRT etc by downregulating PARP and thus its requirement for NAD+.
This would mean less DNA repair and all that goes with it...


Edited by Michael, 14 May 2017 - 07:03 PM.
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#87 Bryan_S

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 08:05 PM

 

Thx Brian;  I consider you a board friend too, but sometimes its ones friends that you want grab by the throat and shake some sense into, as its them in particular you want to help.
The only way I could think of, of doing so via 'the printed word' was my above post.

 

Conjecture is the spice of life and it keeps our reasoning skills sharp. While I think you are on to something, more research is warranted to tease it out. I agree they gloss over this one part of the absorption process and this "perhaps" opens up an area that may provide alternative approaches to dosing ones self with something else to get the same results. That being said we know that taking NR orally is a second place winner to injecting NMN directly and that taking NAR was one potential path dropped in the early days of NR research that still holds promise.

http://biochem.uiowa...nts/bogan08.pdf

 

To your other point about skin the benefits I got from NR alone were present but the addition of nicotinamide amplified them. Nicotinamide Link has been under study for many decades and its benefits concerning autoimmune dysfunctions i.e. skin and joint problems has been previously recognized. It has also been connected with improving cognitive declines in the elderly. I can't cite the original study but there was a doctor (Abram Hoffer, M.D. Google "Nicotinamide Abram Hoffer, M.D."prescribing it for joint issues many decades ago who identified his patients with cognitive problems due to aging improved after taking it for their Arthritis. There is an active study at the University of California, Irvine to answer this very question.

 

As we take NR and this is metabolized into NMN and eventually to NAD+ and HADH it is ultimately converted to Nicotinamide. So one would expect over time lager and larger amounts of Nicotinamide to accumulate in the Krebs cycle anyway since our cells conserve and recycle this coenzyme. Further studies have  indicated Nicotinamide induces mitochondrial biogenesis. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24711540 So I ask where and at what point is nicotinamide riboside producing the desired mitochondrial biogenesis? I believe its the result of raising intracellular NAD and Nicotinamide levels over the course of treatment because we could generate these same results with Nicotinamide alone.

 

So Logic I believe our conjecture produces insights into areas outside of our main topic even if we don't share a consensus on the primary topic. 


Edited by Bryan_S, 15 February 2015 - 08:08 PM.


#88 BigLabRat

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 05:51 PM

Hi, Bryan--

 

I've had some trouble with basal cell carcinoma on my face (had two surgically removed). As you've probably heard, oral nicotinamide reduces actinic keratosis. But I've achieved this same effect with topical nicotinamide. I used a DIY recipe from someone called SkinCareMan at a site called MakeupAlley:

 

In a 100 ml spray bottle, combine:

 

85 ml witch hazel (14% alcohol)

10 ml glycerin

5 gram nicotinamide powder

 

Shake well to mix, and shake before using.

 

This has worked well for me, and you might be interested in trying it. I ordered pure nicotinamide powder from Amazon, as I figured using capsules would leave me with all the additional inert ingredients crystallizing on my skin.

 

Anyhow, if you haven't tried this sort of thing already, you might want to give it a shot. It strikes me as a more efficient way to get nicotinamide to the skin that swallowing it and using the bloodstream to distribute it.



#89 BigLabRat

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 06:31 PM

I'm confused about some of the pathways involved here.

 

Over on AntiAging Firewalls, they claim that Niacin (Na) should be avoided, as it is all converted to Nicotinamide (Nam) in vivo (referencing the Wikipedia page on Nicotinamide), and Nam is a SIRT1 inhibitor, etc etc.

 

But the Wikipedia page on Niacin says there is no direct pathway for conversion of Na to Nam--and that matches with what I have read in various flowcharts pasted at this site.

 

What I see from the flowcharts are three possible pathways to NAD+. The Niacin pathway seems to be entirely independent:

 

Niacin (Na)--->NaMN--->NaAD--->NAD+

 

Both Nicotinamide and NR use a pathway that runs via NMN:

 

Nam--->NMN--->NAD+

NR--->NMN--->NAD+

 

NAD+ can of course be degraded to Nam (and recycled if there is enough NamPT around).

 

But it looks to me as if, on a molar basis, Niacin and NR both probably produce the same amount of free Nam.

 

Am I missing something? Does dosing with Niacin really produce more Nam per molecule than dosing with NR?

 

For that matter, do we know that NR is more effective than Niacin in raising NAD+?



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#90 Bryan_S

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 06:46 PM

Hi, Bryan--

 

I've had some trouble with basal cell carcinoma on my face (had two surgically removed). As you've probably heard, oral nicotinamide reduces actinic keratosis. But I've achieved this same effect with topical nicotinamide. I used a DIY recipe from someone called SkinCareMan at a site called MakeupAlley:

 

In a 100 ml spray bottle, combine:

 

85 ml witch hazel (14% alcohol)

10 ml glycerin

5 gram nicotinamide powder

 

Shake well to mix, and shake before using.

 

This has worked well for me, and you might be interested in trying it. I ordered pure nicotinamide powder from Amazon, as I figured using capsules would leave me with all the additional inert ingredients crystallizing on my skin.

 

Anyhow, if you haven't tried this sort of thing already, you might want to give it a shot. It strikes me as a more efficient way to get nicotinamide to the skin that swallowing it and using the bloodstream to distribute it.

 

BigLabRat

 

I've been closely following the "Study: Vitamin B3 May Help Prevent Certain Skin Cancers," see thread. I adopted a (NR) regiment because of its Anti-inflammatory affects. I've suffered multiple skydiving injuries over the years and taking this B3 cousin orally has helped my joint pain immensely. So going topical wouldn't help my joints. Plus nicotinamide riboside (NR) is recycled in the NAD salvage cycle and becomes nicotinamide (NAM) eventually, so I get its secondary affect.

 

I also have a inflammatory skin condition and that accidentally cleared up as well, so I know its working.

 

If the cancer study is correct I'd expect the protective benefits extend to other tissues of the body. So unless there was a specific health reason to limit my nicotinamide exposure to just my sun exposed skin, why would I not want to accept the added systemic benefits?

 

I have thought of doing what you are doing and I still think its kind of cool if you want to increase the affects in some areas.

 

I've read that topical nicotinamide has some skin bleaching and whitening effects. So beware this can happen because it may or may not be what you want.


Edited by Bryan_S, 13 June 2015 - 07:22 PM.






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