33 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

Looking to see if there is a difference between the two besides one being a beverage.

[Dorian Grey]

Green Tea Extracts (GTE) has gained notoriety over the past few years as one of the few supplements often taken for health that has resulted in liver damage when taken to excess.  Most (all?) of the problems occurred in those taking more than the recommended dosage in "lose weight fast" schemes, but I've seen one report of an elderly woman who developed liver damage taking it at recommended doses.  GTE has been tarnished by this reputation.  Whether this is well deserved or not is debatable.  

 

Most horror stories regarding supplement harm fall into the muscle building, weight loss, sexual enhancement categories, but GTE at the payload delivered in supplemental form at normal doses seems to be marginally safe at best.  Livers are important and I wouldn't risk damaging mine if I could help it.  I've also read EGCG in large amounts can be nauseating.  Yet another thing I can live without.  

 

Green Tea on the other hand has not only a remarkable safety record, but a remarkable record of health benefits...  The Japanese drink more green tea than anyone else, and also live longer than anyone else.  Not too shabby!  

 

Needless to say, I vote for drinking green tea over taking a GTE.  If I truly hated the way green tea tasted or couldn't manage to work it into my daily routine, I'd look for a GTE with as low a payload as possible and even then would cut the pills in half.  

 

More is not always better, and when it comes to GTE, this is especially true!  

[Kevnzworld]

Personally, I take what I consider to be a high quality green tea supplement standardized for its EGCG content. 500 mg.( LEF. ). I wouldn't take some random weight loss supplement that had green tea extract in it. I take this and a plethora of other supplements/ medications, many of which can effect liver health in excess. Some people's liver health is compromised before ingesting a supplement and they are unaware of it. I would order a blood panel that checks your liver enzymes periodically just to be sure. Many people in our society suffer from NASH, non alcoholic fatty liver disease...mostly caused by bad diet alone!
The amount of the polyphenol one would get from a cup or two of tea wouldn't be efficacious IMO . That being said, I still drink three or four glasses of either green or black iced tea daily. ( no added sweetener or sugar, both of which can contribute to NASH )
I have been taking GTE for almost ten years, and have never had elevated liver enzymes...

[1kgcoffee]

I've experienced the nausea from EGCG supplementation. My suggestion is to drink teas brewed strong and don't limit them green.

[serp777]

I take 750 mg of pure green tea extract in capsule form, about 5/7 days a week, but mainly for the nootropic effects. I also occasionally drink a few beers throughout the weak 3-4/7 days of the week. This thread is concerning because I had thought green tea extract to be relatively safe below 1g. What kind of green tea extract dosage causes liver necrosis? I have not experienced any symptoms so far, but i will definitely stop if this dosage is too high. Can anyone inform about the kind of dosages and the kind of durations that caused the damage?

 

Also, most of the liver damage is from people taking those nasty weight loss diet pills, or workout supplements, which contains a host of other unknown chemicals and substances. I'm just wondering if that could also be increasing strain on the liver, or if it's purely a result of the green tea extract. Furthermore, the green tea extract I take is the kind with high levels of ECCGs and Polyphenols. I also drink a couple cups of tea on top of that sometimes. 

[Dorian Grey]

The National Library of Medicine has a page on GTE in their "LiverTox" section...  http://livertox.nlm....ov/GreenTea.htm

 

The 2 case reports listed aren't too impressive, but there are a boatload (87) references below the case studies that include other reports of problems with GTE and there are some impressive reports if you dig through these.  

[serp777]

The National Library of Medicine has a page on GTE in their "LiverTox" section...  http://livertox.nlm....ov/GreenTea.htm

 

The 2 case reports listed aren't too impressive, but there are a boatload (87) references below the case studies that include other reports of problems with GTE and there are some impressive reports if you dig through these.  

 

I saw this article but its missing important information on gauging the safe dosage

 

 

"Medication:

The Right Choice (383.3 mg C. sinensis extract per 3 capsules)"

 

It does not specify how many capsules she took, although I would guess like nine or something.

 

 

In the other case:

 

 

Medication: Hydroxycut (1.8 grams C. sinensis extract per day)

 

 

 

In neither of these cases does it specify the amount of EGCGs as a percentage of the green tea extract. 1.8 grams seems like a crazy amount, and it required a 4-5 week daily duration to achieve those results. Even still, I think I'll cut the green tea extract to 325 milligrams just to be on the safe side. At my current rate, I am going at 750mg * 0.45 = 337.5 mg of EGCG, but not every day. That is probably safe, since web MD suggests keeping levels below 500mg, but I still want a smaller window for safety purposes. I think it would be best to stay under 300 mg. 

[Dorian Grey]

From #32 in the references...  

 

"Molinari M, Watt KD, Kruszyna T, Nelson R, Walsh M, Huang WY, Nashan B, Peltekian K. Acute liver failure induced by green tea extracts: case report and review of the literature. Liver Transpl 2006; 12: 1892-5. PubMed Citation  (44 year old woman developed jaundice 4 months after starting green tea extract [720 mg/day] for weight loss [bilirubin 13.1 rising to 43.2 mg/dL, ALT 3583 U/L, GGT 112 U/L], undergoing liver transplantation 17 days after admission; patient was also on progesterone injections for contraception)."

 

Perhaps the progesterone had something to do with it.  Still, 720mg/day is right around the standard dose in a lot of GTE formulations.  Transplant?  YIKES!  

Edited by synesthesia, 14 July 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[serp777]

From #32 in the references...  

 

"Molinari M, Watt KD, Kruszyna T, Nelson R, Walsh M, Huang WY, Nashan B, Peltekian K. Acute liver failure induced by green tea extracts: case report and review of the literature. Liver Transpl 2006; 12: 1892-5. PubMed Citation  (44 year old woman developed jaundice 4 months after starting green tea extract [720 mg/day] for weight loss [bilirubin 13.1 rising to 43.2 mg/dL, ALT 3583 U/L, GGT 112 U/L], undergoing liver transplantation 17 days after admission; patient was also on progesterone injections for contraception)."

 

Perhaps the progesterone had something to do with it.  Still, 720mg/day is right around the standard dose in a lot of GTE formulations.  Transplant?  YIKES!  

 

Well sounds pretty scary. will definitely cut back; however

 

"

Before taking progesterone

Some medicines are not suitable for people with certain conditions, and sometimes a medicine may only be used if extra care is taken. For these reasons, before you start taking progesterone, it is important that your doctor knows:

• If you are pregnant or breast-feeding.
• If you have migraines, asthma, epilepsy or high blood pressure.
• If you are having any vaginal bleeding other than your normal monthly period.
• If you have ever had a blood clot in your legs or lungs.
• If you have a heart condition.
• If you have had any problems with the way your liver or kidneys work."

It looks like progesterone puts a good amount of strain on the liver, and considering green tea extract does as well, i'm not surpised. 

[serp777]

Also it seems green tea extract is just really unsafe. I can't believe it hasn't been pulled from the shelves

[Kevnzworld]

Also it seems green tea extract is just really unsafe. I can't believe it hasn't been pulled from the shelves

Huh? Tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people take standardized
GTE for EGCG every day.. All without incident .
The greatest cause of liver failure other than alcohol in the US is Tylenol ...1000's per year! ( not one or two that then get written up in a research review, not a study )
If you follow that logic, Acetaminophen should be removed from the shelves!.
One woman, maybe two over a ten year period have experienced liver failure , that may or not be attributed to consuming green tea extract...and we are alarmed?
C'mon...

Edited by Kevnzworld, 14 July 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[serp777]

Also it seems green tea extract is just really unsafe. I can't believe it hasn't been pulled from the shelves

Huh? Tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people take standardized
GTE for EGCG every day.. All without incident .
The greatest cause of liver failure other than alcohol in the US is Tylenol ...1000's per year! ( not one or two that then get written up in a research review, not a study )
If you follow that logic, Acetaminophen should be removed from the shelves!.
One woman, maybe two over a ten year period have experienced liver failure , that may or not be attributed to consuming green tea extract...and we are alarmed?
C'mon...

Well there is no labeling of safe dosage on green tea extract but there certainly is on Tylenol, including other drug interactions. I was mainly referring to super high concentrations of extract, not all extracts; in my earlier posts i mentioned the kind of dosages i was talking about. It would be like if tylenol made a time release product that gave ypu 3800 mg of acetaminophen over the course of the day, and I'm sure you'd agree that shouldn't exist because it would be cutting things a little too close.

Furthermore the studies linked here show over 200 different people in a variety of studies, which have implicated high concentrations of green tea extract as the likely culprit. It just suggests that 700mg and above green tea extracts arent very safe. Realistically 350mg sounds more reasonable

Edited by serp777, 14 July 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

We might also want to consider just how often adverse reactions to supplements (or drugs) actually get reported and written up in medical literature...  

 

When someone gets so sick they require hospitalization or an organ transplant, and this can be narrowed down to a single supplement or drug they were taking, I expect this would get reported.  For every case that gets reported, there may be many more that do not.  

 

Many who begin to experience nausea that may well be related to serious liver inflammation from GTE may simply chuck their pills in the trash and "get better" on their own, without this being documented through proper channels with the FDA and/or their doctor.  

 

Every iceberg has a small area that shows above the water, with a much larger portion hidden beneath the waves.  I expect the same is true for supplement and drug reactions and reports that actually show up in medical literature.  

[ironfistx]

Learning about this was something I wanted to do because I know green tea is supposed to be nice and I don't really want to drink that much tea, not to mention I want to skip caffeine.  Maybe EGCG would give me the pluses of green tea without actually drinking it, but it sounds like not.  How much is in a cup?

[deeptrance]

Learning about this was something I wanted to do because I know green tea is supposed to be nice and I don't really want to drink that much tea, not to mention I want to skip caffeine.  Maybe EGCG would give me the pluses of green tea without actually drinking it, but it sounds like not.  How much is in a cup?

 

From the info I've found, it looks like a typical cup of green tea will have between 20 mg and 200 mg of EGCG, with the average being between 50 and 100 mg.

 

Everyone's liver responds differently to substances. The simplest advice is to have your liver enzymes checked once a year, along with other blood parameters. There's a wealth of information about your health to be found in blood work. Go ahead and drink lots of tea or take EGCG supplements, and if you're worried about becoming a "case study" for liver disease then check your enzyme levels a few months after you begin taking the supplement. No cause for alarm; if the enzymes go up, you drop the EGCG if you think that's the culprit. I kinda doubt that it's as dangerous as this thread suggests.

 

I'm currently taking about 700 mg/day of a 50% EGCG green tea extract, for approximately 350 mg per day, the equivalent of about 4 or 5 cups of green tea. I've experienced nausea when taking too much on an empty stomach, so I blended my EGCG with pine bark extract, cayenne, and milk thistle, and then I take 3 large capsules of this blend in separate doses, and there are no problems. [There's no particular reason for that blend other than convenience of dosing each substance and getting them all into gel caps. Also, cayenne helps with absorption of some nutrients and other substances.]

 

I'm personally not willing to drink much green tea, as I don't care for it and I prefer knowing the dose of EGCG that I'm taking rather than having no clue as to how much is in my tea.

 

Looking at the Examine article on green tea catechins, it's easy to see that there are tremendous benefits in green tea and probably, by extension, in EGCG.

Edited by deeptrance, 30 July 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[Cristopher]

I've experienced the nausea from EGCG supplementation. My suggestion is to drink teas brewed strong and don't limit them green.

 

I have also had the same problem from EGCG.

[Kalliste]

I can't believe so many people on here are so worried about drinking the tea. It's an excellent drink and as far as I know drinking GT is absolutely safe. I drink about 1-2 liters per day made from an ecological brand, leaving the leaves in the water for 10 minutes.

 

 

“Using state-of-the-art metabolic profiling techniques, Dr. Lee and colleagues found EGCG disrupts the rate of turnover of molecules – known as “flux” – through a metabolic pathway in pancreatic cancer cells. They found EGCG disrupts metabolic flux in cancer cells in a similar way to oxamate, a known inhibitor of LDHA. They concluded that both EGCG and oxamate reduced the risk of cancer by suppressing the activity of LDHA, which in turn disrupts metabolic functions in cancer cells.”

 

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 31 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[ironfistx]

So it sounds like drinking green tea is good. Drinking a lot of green tea is good. Taking EGCG may be bad even if you are taking a level less than you get from tea.

[krillin]

454 mg/day green tea polyphenols (from 600 mg of extract) for one year reduced prostate cancer incidence by 89% in men with high-grade prostate intraepithelial neoplasia (which becomes cancer for 30% within one year). PMID: 16424063

 

A preventive dose is probably 5 cups a day, so I'm doing something similar to DeepTrance: 800 mg of a 40% extract for 320 mg polyphenols.  PMID: 17906295

[Kalliste]

Cups is a worthless measure. IIRC GT needs 10 minutes in hot water to release all the good stuff. That detail often seems overlooked in trials. I suspect that there might be other things in the leaves that do good stuff and with pills I worry I will miss out on that.

[Kalliste]

There is some confusion in the scientific literature regarding green tea but I suspect that is because most investigations focus on interviewing subjects about "number of cups of green tea per day" and similar questions. The problem with that is that most people buy it in ready made bags which might be mixed with other things not on the label (sugar, aromatics). It seems common to remove the leaves after 3-5 minutes, most makers of tea recommend that on the cover. Many mix it with milk and consumption of dairy products which might absorb the active ingredients. Many drink it without having eaten anything with oil. So I think green tea is potentially very good but the science is confused.

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 09 August 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[ironfistx]

So it sounds like there are a lot of tings that you should think about when choosing tea. Are there certain grades of tea that should be selected?

[Kalliste]

I'm no expert. Loose leave green tea, 10 mins. One thing I recommend is to buy three or four different brands. Then prepare them next to each other and taste them after the specified time to see which one is best. Senchai is good.

[magicfeeling451]

Hello,

 

You should just drink Green Tea.

 

- There have been cases of people taking EGCG resulting in liver toxicity

- Green Tea has many more cool 'compounds' than EGCG.

- In general, overall, if you get good good quality green for a fair price, then all good. It's much better getting the real thing.

 

Unless of course, you notice a difference with EGCG?.

 

 

[Aurel]

The amount of egcg differs quite a lot on the blend. If you go for some cheap green tea in a bag, I wouldnt be sure of the content at all.

Here an example. As you can see the Sencha would be a good sort - even better if it was specifically harvested in Uchiyama. I ordered some tea from them a time ago. Very good taste. But beside that it is a lot of trouble to get + expensive. I would get the extract for sure (personally I use the one from LEF).

 

[Kalliste]

Interesting chart. Is there any way to find a good and cheap online retailer? I suspect there might be massive over-pricing going on, especially in health-shops.

I never drink out of bag. Here in Sweden some people sent a bunch of different tea-bags for analysis last year, most of them were packed with shit that was not even on the label, for instance many contained 10-40 % sugar by weight.

 

Probably there is more to GT than EGEC, I bet it's a combination of ingredients that work the magic.

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 23 August 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Aurel]

I have just checked my old emails. This is the where I bought the tea: http://www.ruchiyama...line-store.html

They sell all different kinds of tea which was harvested in uchiyama. I searched on google and found more retailors for this tea. This was definetly not the case when I bought it some years ago. All of the onces that I have found via quick search have been more expensive though. So this tea has definetly been promoted by the book by Prof. Dr. med. Richard Béliveau (which the above chart was taken from): "Foods to Fight Cancer" on the english amazon store.

[TyroneGenade]

From #32 in the references...  

 

"Molinari M, Watt KD, Kruszyna T, Nelson R, Walsh M, Huang WY, Nashan B, Peltekian K. Acute liver failure induced by green tea extracts: case report and review of the literature. Liver Transpl 2006; 12: 1892-5. PubMed Citation  (44 year old woman developed jaundice 4 months after starting green tea extract [720 mg/day] for weight loss [bilirubin 13.1 rising to 43.2 mg/dL, ALT 3583 U/L, GGT 112 U/L], undergoing liver transplantation 17 days after admission; patient was also on progesterone injections for contraception)."

 

Perhaps the progesterone had something to do with it.  Still, 720mg/day is right around the standard dose in a lot of GTE formulations.  Transplant?  YIKES!  

 

Thanks! That is a great reference. What is generally not understood is that EGCG, resveratrol etc... are secondary plant metabolites produced by the plants for self defense. They are, invariably, toxic at the "right" concentration. The liver damage is unsurprising. Many of these compounds inhibit the F0F1 ATP synthase (Zheng J. & Ramirez V.D. (2000) Inhibition of mitochondrial proton F0F1-ATPase/ATP

synthase by polyphenolic phytochemicals. Br. J. Pharmacol., 130:1115–1123) I assume this person was dieting... well, if you are fasting the liver's metabolism spikes to produce fats and ketone bodies for the rest of the body. If you inhibit the ATPases even a little you are going to end up with a supply-demand energy mismatch that will culminate in free radical damage, and cell death. 

 

I dispute the claim by the authors that green tea has no benefits. We know that simple green tea has benefits for guinea pigs: Cheng H.C., Chan C.M., Tsay H.S., Liang H.J., Liang Y.C. & Liu D.Z. (2007) Improving effects of epigalocatechin-3-gallate on hemorheological abnormalities of aging guinea pigs. Circ. J., 71:597–603. The same effect has been seen in humans: Widlansky, Michael E., et al. "Acute EGCG supplementation reverses endothelial dysfunction in patients with coronary artery disease." Journal of the American College of Nutrition 26.2 (2007): 95-102. Of course, the question here is at what dose does the cure become the poison? (I guess somewhere around 720 mg/day.)

 

Incidentally, a cup of tea is about 20 mg of polyphenolics. I image 36 cups of tea would kill my liver too.

[niner]

What is generally not understood is that EGCG, resveratrol etc... are secondary plant metabolites produced by the plants for self defense. They are, invariably, toxic at the "right" concentration. The liver damage is unsurprising. Many of these compounds inhibit the F0F1 ATP synthase (Zheng J. & Ramirez V.D. (2000) Inhibition of mitochondrial proton F0F1-ATPase/ATP
synthase by polyphenolic phytochemicals. Br. J. Pharmacol., 130:1115–1123) I assume this person was dieting... well, if you are fasting the liver's metabolism spikes to produce fats and ketone bodies for the rest of the body. If you inhibit the ATPases even a little you are going to end up with a supply-demand energy mismatch that will culminate in free radical damage, and cell death.

This was an in vivo study, and the IC50 values were an order of magnitude higher than feasible in vivo concentrations. Thus, this isn't going to be a factor in real life.

[Area-1255]

EGCG is a very interesting compound, I would be careful about high doses though - as it has been known to possibly inhibit testosterone production; in addition to it's already known DHT inhibiting effects, this can cause issues.

 

 

http://biohacksblog....d-testosterone/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19330017

 

 

Stick with 45% EGCG at the very most. Remember everything in moderation.