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Immortality Through Spiritual Means

immortality life extension spiritual religious

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#61 Duchykins

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:32 AM

You need to first understand what an asymptote is.  Then you can get an idea of what it means for the temperature of the universe to asymptotically approach zero.  And then know that the energy is still hanging out, it's just not as kinetic energy (or almost no KE).


Edited by Duchykins, 22 December 2015 - 12:35 AM.


#62 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:34 AM

 

Not in the ultimate heat death of the cosmos.  There will no longer be any availability energy even for life.  Also this a long way from human life.  All physical things die.

 

 

That's incorrect.  Kinetic energy is not the only kind of energy.  Since we would be talking about near- or at absolute zero, you should take a look at QM zero-point energy.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed in an isolated system.  The universe is an isolated system; it is THE isolated system.


You're just making shit up based on popular belief and folk logic.


You don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

I see you are starting to talk shit rather than have a rational talk.  Typical.  Energy is not destroyed and I never said it was.  It has ran down and is no longer available for work.



#63 Duchykins

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:37 AM

 

 

Not in the ultimate heat death of the cosmos.  There will no longer be any availability energy even for life.  Also this a long way from human life.  All physical things die.

 

 

That's incorrect.  Kinetic energy is not the only kind of energy.  Since we would be talking about near- or at absolute zero, you should take a look at QM zero-point energy.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed in an isolated system.  The universe is an isolated system; it is THE isolated system.


You're just making shit up based on popular belief and folk logic.


You don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

I see you are starting to talk shit rather than have a rational talk.  Typical.  Energy is not destroyed and I never said it was.  It has ran down and is no longer available for work.

 

Wrong again.  All of the energy is still there.  The total amount of energy does not decrease.   



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#64 Duchykins

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:43 AM

1)  You're basing at least part of your belief on popular "metaphysical" woo.

2)  You're basing at least part of your belief on outdated physics.  We're still breaking past things that used to be investigative barriers for us and are discovering that many assumptions have been wrong.  

Like this:


https://www.aps.org/...quantumchem.cfm

 

 

Physicists Study Quantum Chemistry Near Absolute Zero
  Physicists at the 2010 March Meeting announced the first observation of chemical reactions at temperatures near absolute zero. It is the first time that the quantum state of the molecules significantly affected a chemical reaction.

Researchers at the University of Colorado cooled a gas of potassium-rubidium molecules in an optical lattice to a few nanoKelvins above absolute zero and observed the atoms break and reform molecular bonds.

“What’s going on here is chemistry,” said Deborah Jin from JILA at the University of Colorado and one of the team that conducted the experiments, “This is the first time in a chemical reaction the quantum state plays a role.

 


The cooled molecules reacted with each other over distances much greater than they normally would at room temperatures. At these ultra-low energy levels, the quantum wavelength of each molecule expands out to over 100 nanometers, much greater than the 1 nanometer distances over which chemical reactions typically occur.

When the wavelengths of two potassium-rubidium molecules overlapped under the right conditions, they broke their molecular bonds and reformed as one molecule of two rubidium atoms and one of two potassium atoms.

“The two molecules are highly reactive when they are close together, with nearly 100 percent probability of reaction when they are within a nanometer of one another,” said Paul Julienne, a theorist at NIST who was also on the team. “The very long quantum wavelengths of the molecules, more than 100 nm, means that they can only get within 1 nm of each other by specifically quantum ways that depend strongly on temperature and whether the two fermions are in the same or different spin states.”

The research team found also that the reactions were highly influenced by the nuclear spins of the atoms in the molecules. According to the Pauli Exclusion Principle, two identical fermions cannot occupy the same state at the same time. As a result, molecules that have the same spins are less likely to be near each other than those that have different spins, slowing down the reaction rate by up to factor of 100.

Physicists began using lasers to cool atoms to near-zero temperatures more than 20 years ago; however cooling entire molecules is a much more recent development. Factors including combined nuclear spins and rotational and vibrational states add a huge extra level of complexity to the techniques needed to trap and cool atoms, the first cooling of entire molecules was only achieved in 2008. The simple but reactive potassium-rubidium molecules were ideal for the experiment. In addition each molecule is polar, positively charged on the rubidium side and negatively charged on the potassium side, allowing the physicists to easily manipulate the molecules with an electric field.

“There has been work on ultracold molecules made from ultracold atom gases before, but those are molecules in very high vibrationally excited states, so the molecules are barely bound,” said Jun Ye, the other team leader at JILA. “In our experiment, we have ground-state molecules–in their lowest energy states–at nanokelvin temperatures.”

The researchers who conducted the experiment say that this technique could yield new insight into intermolecular forces and could have applications in quantum computing and high resolution spectroscopy.


#65 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:02 AM

You need to learn how to read.  I did not say all the energy was not there I sain it was no longer available to do any work.  Apparently you are denying entropy.  Not only that but the universe is expanding and will be so diluted that what happens will not matter one way or the other.  Nothing human is going to play any part in this environment.  Well we are off topic.  My main point is there is no hope for us if we are only physical.



#66 Duchykins

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:37 AM

You need to learn how to read.  I did not say all the energy was not there I sain it was no longer available to do any work.  Apparently you are denying entropy.  Not only that but the universe is expanding and will be so diluted that what happens will not matter one way or the other.  Nothing human is going to play any part in this environment.  Well we are off topic.  My main point is there is no hope for us if we are only physical.

 

You said any available energy.  If you were just talking strictly about heat energy you should specify it in the future.  There will be almost no kinetic energy available for work, but there will still be potential energy for work.  Other energies can do work too, that's actually part and parcel of the very definition of energy.

//Not only that but the universe is expanding and will be so diluted//

We don't know how much further wavelengths will expand as the temperature drops; for all we know, they could continue to expand proportionally with the temp drop.  You can see from that article that chemical bonds were broken from a much greater distance under supercool temps than under normal temps.  Then new chemical bonds were formed and a whole new molecule made.   Hint: chemical bonds store potential energy.   Now since I don't have the details I don't know if this reaction released more energy with the forming of the bonds than it absorbed energy to break the bonds in the first place.

Your argument assumes humans will still exist right up to the end, and that there will be no other forms of self-aware beings in the universe at the end.  This is even less likely to possible than your skydaddy existing.



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#67 seivtcho

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 07:24 AM

So you think you will survive the heat death of the cosmos based upon your assumption that there are living things floating in outer space.?  Where is your evidence of such things?

 

No. I only think, that your idea, that everything physical dies is not true anymore.



#68 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 08:55 PM

Well define death.  Decomposition of any useful form capable of doing anything.  Physical only humans will be dead, their form and bodies decomposed.  The only thing that awaits is the worm.



#69 seivtcho

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 09:13 PM

You define death :) You are the one, who claims, that everything physical dies.

 

I claim that at least some living things in a deep anabiosis can remain in anabiosis forever.



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#70 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 09:33 PM

Sense we have been talking about heat death of the universe  The 'heat-death' of the universe is when the universe has reached a state of maximum entropy. This happens when all available energy (such as from a hot source) has moved to places of less energy (such as a colder source). Once this has happened, no more work can be extracted from the universe. Since heat ceases to flow, no more work can be acquired from heat transfer. This same kind of equilibrium state will also happen with all other forms of energy (mechanical, electrical, etc.). Since no more work can be extracted from the universe at that point, it is effectively dead, especially for the purposes of humankind. Since we physically are part of the universe that will happen to us as well.  It will happen long before the heat death as we will be consumed by the sun through global warming and will probibly be eaten by a black hole.  Do you want a human account of death and its process where the worm awaits?



#71 seivtcho

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 09:45 PM

The heat death of the unverse certainly can be survived by someorganisms in anabiotic state. They are lucky in terms, that they can wait for another universe to explode with a big bang.

 

I believe, that the human kind has a good enough tool - the brain - in order to survive all of the cataclisms that you described. I think, that when the time for the cataclism comes, the solution will be long time ready.

 

 



#72 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 10:55 PM

I am afraid you do not understand the heat death.  Nor is there any evidence to support further big bangs.  The universe es expanding faster and faster and nothing seems powerful enough to slow it down.  I might add here if your hope for life is in the physical only, even given your view, you don't stand a snowballs chance in hell to still be around.  So the question raised by the topic must be considered if you hope to likve forever.  We are both body and spirit.



#73 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 07:10 AM

For the heat death - I understand it enough for not to believe you :) that some living things cant survive the heat death in anabiosis :)

 

For the existence of other universes and the chances of new universe being created:

The theory of the big bang says that the univese exploded long long time ago and is now enlarging like a baloon.

The theory of the multiuniverses says there are more than one baloon inflating at the moment, and there are new baloons exploding. Some baloons enter in each-other and unite, others fision in halve, divide and turn into two universes, third die, fourth explode newely. New universes are being born even nowadays, and people hope even to see the baby universes with new telescopes.

https://www.youtube....h?v=QzIbpwcm0pk

 

For if people will be immortal some day:

I believe, that the human mind is cappable of solving all problems. If the solution of the problem is not currently available, it will become available in the future.

We both will live forever if we destroy the nearest threat - the aging. And if we continue to destroy or overcome the new life threats.

 

For the both body and spirit concept:

Its yor time to prove now. Prove, that we are both body and spirit and not only a body.



#74 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 07:44 PM

No life will be possible in the end, at least life as we know it.  Any reaction that takes place will either result in the products becoming less ordered, or heat being given off. This means at some time far in the future, when all the possible reactions have taken place, all that will be left is heat (i.e electromagnetic radiation) and fundamental particles. No reactions will be possible, because the universe will have reached its maximum entropy. The only reactions that can take place will result in a decrease of entropy, which is not possible, so in effect the universe will have died.  That is the ultimate hope of materialists.  I think we have argued this point enough.  Is there a spiritual approach to life forever that is another choice?



#75 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 07:59 PM

It seems you felt it hard when I busted your claim that not absolutely everything will surely die :) and ther arethings, that will stay in absolute zero anabiosis lol. But you have accepted it. Thanks! Now your next argument is that the survived in anabiosis specie will not be alive, even though it will not be death either.

 

And you obviously dont accept the argument for the possibility of forming of a new universe.

And you dont believe, that the science will find a solution of all possible life threatening situations.

 

I am a materialist, and my ultimate hope is not the death of the universe.

 

The existence of soul, and other non material forms of us, such as ghosts and spirits is an unproven concept.

Better invest your time in how to survive in the material world, instead of thinking if there is something spiritual or not. If by any occasion they exist, and they are immortal, then it will be a happy bonus. But if they dont exist and you die, then thats that.



#76 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 08:46 PM

Sorry you do not understand what I said. #74  The universe will be dead and there will be no possibility of life.  So I defined what death in the universe is.  We all know what human physical death is.  The system stops working due to many forces at work which are fundamental at causing it to loose function.  Life can exist under some severe environments but there is no evidence that life can exist in outer space.  I don't care if you think you have some scheme which you think will let you physically  live forever, the evidence  is against you.



#77 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 09:27 PM

I believe, that people in a reversable cryopreservation can survive until a new universe is formed. This requires technologies, that are not available yet, but I think will be available in the distant future, when people will have to worry seriously about the heat death of the universe.

 

P.S. if people cant do it, at least some insects, microorganisms and tardigrades will survive in anabiosis until the formation of a new universe. Even without technologies behind them. And for the last, yes, there are evidences.

Some info about tardigrades (I am posting it because not everybody knows what tardigrades are):

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Tardigrade


Edited by seivtcho, 23 December 2015 - 09:33 PM.


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#78 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 09:57 PM

Actually as the sun burns it expands and someday we (Earth) will be inside the sun.  You are not going to be cold at first you will be fried.  However you will be baked long before that.  Then comes the death of the sun as it burns out.  Don't worry about it the worm will show up long before that.  You ultimately have as much chance of escaping that as all the other humans who have gone on before you.  If that is not going to happen, give evidence it is not going to happen.  Give evidence the second Law of Thermodynamics does not apply to you.



#79 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 10:07 PM

I told you already that :) I believe, that the people are cappable of surviving all of these.

For your example, when the sun starts to enlarga, people will be able to leave the Earth and settle somewhere else.

 



#80 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 12:24 AM

The somewhere else will still have the same problem, entropy.  On top of that the universe is expanding.  If there was another life supporting planet it would be hundred of light years away.  How do YOU think you could ever get there?  I don't have enough faith to believe being a materialist has any hope.



#81 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 09:03 AM

Yes, but it will have the same solution - thinking out and making a survival strategy.



#82 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 03:49 PM

I am not sure if this is the right place to mention it, but here is something, that might be on the topic.

 

A budist lama has managed to enter in some sort of anabiosis by meditation, probabbly combined with herbs.

 

He has managed to stay under the ground in a wooden cage in this anabiotic state for 75 years. The budists have pulled him out and placed him a galss chamber, where he died and turned into a mummy. When he was dug out he has been in like alive body condition.

 

Scientists are trying to understand how he did it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=iooazK0Gbps

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Mos-FWdMX6E

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=er16olNfD3A



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#83 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:24 PM

Yes, but it will have the same solution - thinking out and making a survival strategy.

 

Think away but I doubt either you or I will solve the physical issues.
 



#84 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 09:28 PM

This could be the destiny of the human kind (at least in the material world) - to live forever or to try to live forever before to extinct.

 

We both may die some day, but what we will do will be passed on our generations.

If not us, at least someone from our future generations will do it.

 

We both and the people living today only must not miss the chance to try.


Edited by seivtcho, 24 December 2015 - 09:32 PM.


#85 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 11:27 PM

I do what I can to have a long and healthful life, relatively speaking.  But I rationally don't have faith in the physical only.  The super centenarians live 110-120 years, there are few of them, most are women under 5 feet tall and are in rest homes.   So the spiritual is the only alternative to me.  Hence our topic.  Do we have a spirit or not?  If so, the "I" exists after death of the body.  It is not physical



#86 seivtcho

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 06:08 AM

No spirits according to me. Everything, that you call a spirit is the workings of the brain - your memories, wishes, the way you see the world, experience.

 

By the way, Merry christmas to everyone!

 



#87 Dakman

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 09:43 AM

Spirituality seems to be born from fear and a coping mechanism for those scared of the unknown and those unwilling to accept they're not immortal 



#88 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:51 PM

If you are a materialist only you have every reason to be afraid.  You are not immortal and the worm awaits.  Cope with that.  But I think it is time to consider the evidence for the spirit.  I had a wonderful Christmas.



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#89 seivtcho

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 03:10 PM

And what are the evidences for the spirit?



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#90 Multivitz

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 12:28 PM

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=zf72l079GAQ Here is an interview that most materialist would have a hard time following. The guy knows his stuff and in this interview explains immortality from his point of view. His view is shared by millions. It's worth watching, as he points to many areas that one could learn from.


Well I keep saying to everyone 'check out Harry Oldfields work'. That's some startling evidence backed by science.

Edited by Multivitz, 30 December 2015 - 12:36 PM.






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