100 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

What do you think?

 

http://motherboard.v...-substances-act

[Hotforpips]

Ridiculous but not unexpected of the UK

[Turnbuckle]

[The act] excludes legitimate substances, such as food, alcohol, tobacco, nicotine, caffeine and medical products from the scope of the offence...

 

 

Funny that the most socially problematical substances of all are excluded, while it even appears to cover oxygen (everything stimulating is covered unless specifically exempted, and inhaling deeply is certainly stimulating). This is a very bad and totalitarian law, and it will be interesting to see the UK lock up people for the crime of breathing.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 10 February 2016 - 03:04 PM.

[Samwise]

Yeah, but the majority of the public seems too poorly educated to do anything about it (and be able to put up a proper protest). You'd have to get some people with decent media presence actually explain the extent of the law's stupidity and how much harm it could do. Also, does anyone know how strict they're going to be the law on things like the racetams, mushrooms like lion's mane, and stuff like vinpocetine? I might end up studying there next year and I need to know what I can sneak in. :/

[sativa]

I will be stocking up on iboga liquid extract as my vendor actually accords to UK law. Thankfully I don't depend on or use any other chemicals (except maybe memantine but iboga has that covered!).

My only qualm is what effect this dumb law will have on botanicals with useful properties...
I will be stocking up on iboga liquid extract as my vendor actually accords to UK law. Thankfully I don't depend on or use any other chemicals (except maybe memantine but iboga has that covered!).

My only qualm is what effect this dumb law will have on botanicals with useful properties...

[Sleepdealer]

Wow, that is an annoying law. Stimulating or depressing the central nervous system could mean any kind of substance, even stuff like Bacopa or green tea extract. They ban things that people take for procognitive and therapeutic reasons, while alcohol, a substance that retards people and damages society is still a-okay.

[Turnbuckle]

I can't seem to find theobromine in the excluded list, so that would make tea illegal. 

[sativa]

Oh my, I hadn't even considered the extent of the silliness - cacao contains numerous alkaloids (including Phenylethylamine) so that would become illegal. I'm aware chocolate is considered a food but, what about pure cacao extract?

Also, sports and bodybuilding supplements usually have their own alkaloids and stuff (Hordenine, Phenylethylamine, agmatine etc etc).

And wormwood! I have absinthe in mind here. Re tea, Theanine...

Well, come April, the black market will enjoy a lavish expansion in a plethora of areas.

Wow. Just wow.

Edited by sativa, 11 February 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[BlueCloud]

Wow, it looks pretty insane. That means even traditional indian and chinese herbs like bacopa, ginseng, ashwagandha, etc are going to be banned. But you are welcome to fry your neurons and destroy your liver every week-end with binge drinking, a national UK sport...
Whoever wrote this law must be some corrupt idiot politician, and probably got a big fat check under the counter from some pharma lobby group to help finance his escorts "hobby", tabbed under "various expenses" and paid for with taxpayers money.
Disgusting ( and i don't even live in the Uk )

Edited by BlueCloud, 11 February 2016 - 11:01 PM.

[airplanepeanuts]

I don't think they will take ginseng, theanine and that kind of stuff off the market...

Edited by airplanepeanuts, 12 February 2016 - 12:34 AM.

[YOLF]

I can't seem to find theobromine in the excluded list, so that would make tea illegal. 

theobromine I think is more characteristic of chocolate. What about theanine? 

 

It may only be the research noots like racetams, centrophenoxine, and that kind of thing that they're doing away with. Food based noots I'm thinking would still be available?

[Sleepdealer]

 

"For the purposes of this Act a substance produces a psychoactive effect in a
person if, by stimulating or depressing the person’s central nervous system, it
affects the person’s mental functioning or emotional state; and references to a
substance’s psychoactive effects are to be read accordingly."

 

I read this excerpt from the bill of law as any substance that affects mental functioning or emotional state is the very definition of a psychoactive drug. Am I interpreting this right?

They can't ban things that can be concidered essential food. But if you were to extract specific substances out of food products in high concentrations, substances that effect mental functioning or emotional state and that don't count as nutriciously essential (such as vitamins and minerals, aminoacids(?)), then I suppose those are products that COULD be confiscated in the customs or would be deemed as illegal inside the country. Even if it's a relatively harmless substance such as bacopa extract, ginseng extract, theanine I suppose, since the law is so broadly defined.

[Sleepdealer]

We probably need more time to see how agencies, customs etc. are going to behave around these things to be able to know what substances will pass, but what are thoughts from the brits around Longecity? If you are using nootropics, what will you do now that you can't?

[Sleepdealer]

Sorry, i cant edit from my phone. I mean if you THEORETICALLY cant legally buy or order in any nootropic that you are now using, what would you concider doing as a measure of remeding your "ailment".

[Turnbuckle]

 

I can't seem to find theobromine in the excluded list, so that would make tea illegal. 

theobromine I think is more characteristic of chocolate. What about theanine? 

 

It may only be the research noots like racetams, centrophenoxine, and that kind of thing that they're doing away with. Food based noots I'm thinking would still be available?

 

 

Yes, theanine is in tea, of course, but so are theobromine and theophylline, which are metabolites of caffeine. So the British government may think it's made things easier for itself in its quest to stay ahead of the underground creativity that it itself has stimulated, but it is about to create an entirely new problem. For one thing, the law doesn't appear to specify the levels of anything, only the simple-minded statement that foods are excluded. So are cookies with designer drugs okay? And will these cookies be eaten by children?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 12 February 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[BlueCloud]

I don't think they will take ginseng, theanine and that kind of stuff off the market...

Those are not essential foods, and they are psychoactive, so technically they do fall under this law.

[Irishdude]

 

 

I can't seem to find theobromine in the excluded list, so that would make tea illegal. 

theobromine I think is more characteristic of chocolate. What about theanine? 

 

It may only be the research noots like racetams, centrophenoxine, and that kind of thing that they're doing away with. Food based noots I'm thinking would still be available?

 

 

Yes, theanine is in tea, of course, but so are theobromine and theophylline, which are metabolites of caffeine. So the British government may think it's made things easier for itself in its quest to stay ahead of the underground creativity that it itself has stimulated, but it is about to create an entirely new problem. For one thing, the law doesn't appear to specify the levels of anything, only the simple-minded statement that foods are excluded. So are cookies with designer drugs okay? And will these cookies be eaten by children?

 

They will just apply the law to the psychoactive part of the food and a judge will send you down. They can apply the law anyway they wish if there prosecutions service says so. Imagine youre charged with importing a psychoactive substance be it in food or not, and youre trying to get off cause its in food and hoping the judge sees it that way.. if you fail its going to be harsher sentences. This is a catch all net to screw anyone importing what they deem to be a large quantity. They wont bring charges to anyone importing small amounts. They will just seize it, like what they do with small amounts of cannabis.

Lets not forget that > 90% of small parcels arent checked. Its the stuff in the > than 10 grams that you will have to worry more about, let alone kilo stuff. This encourages development of more bioactive substances in low mg ranges. These usually are more dangerous to the user.
 

Edited by Irishdude, 12 February 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 They can apply the law anyway they wish if there prosecutions service says so. 

 

 

 

A law that means whatever the government says it means is no law at all. It's the basis of totalitarianism.

[Logic]

Start a Petition to 42,876,569 members

https://avaaz.org/en/

 

or

 

Form an alliance with the local pusher and start a lucrative business!  

 

or

 

Just moan about it here a bit...

 

 

Edited by Logic, 12 February 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[YOLF]

Sorry, i cant edit from my phone. I mean if you THEORETICALLY cant legally buy or order in any nootropic that you are now using, what would you concider doing as a measure of remeding your "ailment".

Moving... lol 

 

So will people seek refugee status for inability to obtain the necessary medical care?

[YOLF]

 

 

I can't seem to find theobromine in the excluded list, so that would make tea illegal. 

theobromine I think is more characteristic of chocolate. What about theanine? 

 

It may only be the research noots like racetams, centrophenoxine, and that kind of thing that they're doing away with. Food based noots I'm thinking would still be available?

 

 

Yes, theanine is in tea, of course, but so are theobromine and theophylline, which are metabolites of caffeine. So the British government may think it's made things easier for itself in its quest to stay ahead of the underground creativity that it itself has stimulated, but it is about to create an entirely new problem. For one thing, the law doesn't appear to specify the levels of anything, only the simple-minded statement that foods are excluded. So are cookies with designer drugs okay? And will these cookies be eaten by children?

 

 

 

So piracetam could be used as a cookie sweetener as long as it isn't taken as pills? Soft drinks could be enriched with bacopa etc?

[BlueCloud]

Sorry, i cant edit from my phone. I mean if you THEORETICALLY cant legally buy or order in any nootropic that you are now using, what would you concider doing as a measure of remeding your "ailment".

Moving... lol

So will people seek refugee status for inability to obtain the necessary medical care?

Or sue the government. There must be a basis for starting a lawsuit, i mean a lot of substances like bacopa and such are part of very old indian and chinese medicinal traditions, and with the big asian and indian british communities, you're depriving potentially millions of people from using their traditional remedies, thus endangering their health.

[YOLF]

For those losing access to noots, I imagine humility will be called for. A loss of even small benefits from diet and exercise can change our capacities. If you've developed personal habits for having used noots, you may begin to regress and find yourself getting into trouble or not meeting the expectations that other have come to have of you. You will need to return to the old habits that worked for you rather than trying to maintain habits that might not continue to work out. Then again, it may just be a little more difficult and leave you trying harder. I'd suggest watching out for these behavioral changes.

[jroseland]

The United Kingdom trades yet more freedom for 'security'

[Nootropic Cat]

Bump. May as well at least sign the petition and send the link to everyone we know. Seems unlikely anyone will actually end up getting prosecuted for possessing or taking noots but it's really going to suck if access to them becomes black-market-only :(

[Kingsley]

My two cents:

 

Assuming that the law is as ridiculously far-reaching as people are saying it is, my bet is that you will still be able to import the products without much risk.  The law is one thing, but enforcement of the law is another.  There is just no way that customs or law enforcement is going to waste man power on things like ginseng and piracetam, assuming that you don't import ten kilos and try to sell it.  It's like ordering modafinil online in the US: one out of a hundred times you may get a letter from customs stating that your package was confiscated, but you really don't have to worry about the Feds kicking down your door.

 

The real issue could be whether supplement companies outside the UK will be willing to ship to the UK.  They might be bound by E.U. regulation or something to respect the laws of other countries--no idea.  May have to rely more on small vendors on Amazon or Ebay.  I have the suspicion though that it may not end up being as big of a deal as people fear. 

[Turnbuckle]

I have the suspicion though that it may not end up being as big of a deal as people fear. 

 

 

Not a big deal? The legal ramifications are enormous. With one law, the UK has made everything illegal unless they specifically permit citizens to ingest it or inhale it. Such sweeping laws are typical of totalitarian dictatorships, not democracies, and the ill effects will only increase with time as the UK goverment uses this law to put the screws into the population. In the US, alcohol was once banned by constitutional amendment thereby generating a massive crime wave, but now the constitution is just ignored and drugs are banned by bureaucrats in the DEA, creating the largest prison population since Stalin. So expect this UK law to be the beginning of a social disaster even greater than what the US has experienced.

[Kingsley]

Not a big deal? The legal ramifications are enormous. With one law, the UK has made everything illegal unless they specifically permit citizens to ingest it or inhale it. Such sweeping laws are typical of totalitarian dictatorships, not democracies, and the ill effects will only increase with time as the UK goverment uses this law to put the screws into the population. In the US, alcohol was once banned by constitutional amendment thereby generating a massive crime wave, but now the constitution is just ignored and drugs are banned by bureaucrats in the DEA, creating the largest prison population since Stalin. So expect this UK law to be the beginning of a social disaster even greater than what the US has experienced.

 

 

I didn't say it's not a big deal.  I said that I speculate that it may not end up being as big of a deal as people fear. 

 

The problem as I understand it is that the law defines "psychoactive substance" extremely broadly in a way that arguably encompasses any substance providing even a modest cognitive boost.  So that could be anything from ginseng to serious designer drugs, and everything in between. 

 

Remember, though, that the intent behind the bill is to do away with "legal highs," i.e. substances that produce a similar effect to currently outlawed drugs but which escape regulation due to their novelty or obscurity.  I know nothing about UK law, but in the U.S., the legislative intent behind a law is a major driving force in how it is interpreted and enforced, especially when the law is ambiguous, which is clearly the case here. 

 

Also, remember that there is a difference between the letter of the law and actual enforcement of the law.  Government agencies have limited personnel and resources and set their priorities accordingly.  For example, in the U.S., as far as I can tell, there is almost universal non-enforcement of laws re. grey-area or lightly schedule substances (i.e. modafinil), except for maybe the more grievous violations.  You can bet money that there will be no big push by law enforcement to crack down on ___________ (insert favorite nootropic) even if that nootropic ends up being illegal, which it probably won't.    

 

Case in point: the new UK law is based on a very similar Irish law passed in 2010.  In the first five years of its existence, the law resulted in a total of four successful prosecutions, and those against synthetic cannabinoids and other serious designer drugs.  See http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33226526.  Granted, the definition of "psychoactive" in the Irish law requires a "significant" change to awareness, mood, etc., but this would still seemingly encompass many nootropics and related substances.  For example, 5-htp and tyrosine certainly produce a significant change to mood in many.  See text of Irish law at: http://www.irishstat...nacted/en/print.

 

The article above on the Irish law raises another good point: you have to prove a criminal violation based on evidence, and for many supplements, there is no clear evidence that they produce any psychoactive effect.  Is some obscure Russian study of piracetam on rats going to constitute evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that piracetam produces a psychoactive effect in humans?  Are prosecutors going to come into court armed with forum posts from Longecity.org reading "I took some piracetam and think I felt something..."  Seems pretty laughable to me. 

 

So, at this point we are only speculating and dealing in likelihoods.  But in my opinion, the chances of the law not being narrowly interpreted and applied appear very, very low. 

 

 

Edited by Kingsley, 23 February 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 

So, at this point we are only speculating and dealing in likelihoods.  But in my opinion, the chances of the law not being narrowly interpreted and applied appear very, very low. 

 

 

 

This is like saying the NSA's domestic spying is only going to be applied to terrorists, and not broadly to the civilian population. From the get-go it was applied to Congress, the Supreme Court, the secret court, the Pentagon, and to a great number of lawyers, presumably to get blackmail dirt and undermine the republic. We know it has been used in conjunction with the DEA to get convictions where the DEA lied to the court as to the source of the intel, and we suspect it has been used to imprison the president of Qwest when he refused to compromise the data of his customers. If violations are so widespread that almost anyone can be arrested for them, then this has a chilling effect on the entire population.

[Kingsley]

 

 

 

 

So, at this point we are only speculating and dealing in likelihoods.  But in my opinion, the chances of the law not being narrowly interpreted and applied appear very, very low. 

 

 

 

This is like saying the NSA's domestic spying is only going to be applied to terrorists, and not broadly to the civilian population. From the get-go it was applied to Congress, the Supreme Court, the secret court, the Pentagon, and to a great number of lawyers, presumably to get blackmail dirt and undermine the republic. We know it has been used in conjunction with the DEA to get convictions where the DEA lied to the court as to the source of the intel, and we suspect it has been used to imprison the president of Qwest when he refused to compromise the data of his customers. If violations are so widespread that almost anyone can be arrested for them, then this has a chilling effect on the entire population.

 

 

I think the better comparison is the almost identical version of the psychological substances act that was enacted in Ireland six years ago.  As I said, it has been applied only to serious designer drugs, probably because it would be absolutely insane to try to apply it to nootropics and run-of-the-mill supplements.

 

I agree with your basic point, which is that government agencies tend to interpret statutory language to their advantage, which is why it is so unlikely that an agency would voluntarily subject itself to the administrative nightmare and probable legal impossibility of policing every supplement under the sun.  Some of those challenges are discussed in the article I cited, and that's just for designer drugs; supplements would be to a whole other level.