2195 replies to this topic

[stephen_b]

I am considering the impact of vitamin D status on the outcomes of this protocol.

 

Low vitamin D status resulted in reduced mitochondrial efficiency by as much as a third to a half in skeletal muscle cells (see The Vitamin D Receptor (VDR) Regulates Mitochondrial Function in C2C12 Myoblasts). Low D status appears not to impact mitochondrial mass, but rather efficiency.

 

I had been taking 1000 IU on occasion from my multi, but have been having a big (pace improving by 1min/mile at same effort) improvement in running since dosing more lately.

 

Maybe those having greater success have been paying closer attention to vitamin D status than I have up until now.

[yz69]

A Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy blood test will show your vitamin D level. Mine was 28ng/mL back in 2019, borderline low, then took 5000-10000IU daily, recheck in 2020 and the level was 79ng/mL. 

[kurt9]

 

I don’t agree. I say all mtDNA methylation is bad. Methylated mtDNA mooches enzymes off other mtDNA, and because they don’t produce as much ATP they don’t produce as much ROS, and thus have a survival advantage as they are less prone to mutation. Eventually the cell will become full of moochers and result in fatigue and many other problems of aging.

 

So I say get rid of them all, mutations and methylation alike.

 

This dynamic is the basis of Aubrey de Grey's theory of mitochondrial aging. Perhaps we should call your routine the real MitoSENS. I did your earlier protocol about a year ago, and felt the head-rush of additional energy just about the time the first shutdowns were imposed. I will be trying your new technique this summer. I will probably try your C60 stem cell senolytic technique five years down the road.

[mike20g]

After a long break I repeated this protocol. This time I went up to the full dosage. I did not get "heart squeeze" side effect this time, perhaps whatever was wrong with the heart got fixed or perhaps body adopted to protocol. As previously during fission day T+3 hours I felt somewhat tired. Still had energy to do daily stuff, but felt more like I was on sedative. Better description - I did not feel I could afford to spend limited energy I had in me that day for energy costly processes such as getting angry, irritated, screaming, etc.. I generally avoided working out on fission day. I did not feel discomfort on fission day though, it was like taking a break from normal busy day...  Fusion day was same as previously, I got more energy and mental clarity, desire to do more.. 

 

I will be trying C60 Stem Renewal protocol soon, while waiting for supplements for it I will be doing several cycles of mito fission/fusion. From your experience - is there anything else I should be doing before starting C60 protocol?

[EliotH]

A Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy blood test will show your vitamin D level. Mine was 28ng/mL back in 2019, borderline low, then took 5000-10000IU daily, recheck in 2020 and the level was 79ng/mL. 

 

I've been taking 5,000 iu/day for a while. My test last week showed around 28. Doc offered to give me a prescription. I upped to 10,000 of my OTC stuff and started getting some sun.

[Unclebob]

Tip for taking GMS for you coffee lovers out there.

 

I do KETO so have mct oil coffee and cream in the morning. 

 

I simply add the GMS to the cream and mct oil and use a hand whisk/coffee froffer to mix when adding the hot coffee.

 

Froffy, creamy and delicious. 

 

Done.

 

Gordon Ramsey wound be proud (lol).

 

Hope this helps. 

[mike20g]

The fastest and most convenient way to take GMS that I use - simply pour GMS powder into mouth and drink any liquid you want. GMS does not have strong taste and this method works well for me. By the way same way works with stearic acid powder.

[Turnbuckle]

The fastest and most convenient way to take GMS that I use - simply pour GMS powder into mouth and drink any liquid you want. GMS does not have strong taste and this method works well for me. By the way same way works with stearic acid powder.

 

 

I don't recommend this method unless you leave a half our or so before the PQQ. Otherwise I suggest either putting it in a hot beverage, or dissolving it with amino acids like EAA or lysine in a small amount of water in the microwave, then adding it to fruit juice. In any case, establishing fusion first isn't quite as critical with this mito treatment as it is with the stem cell treatment.

[mike20g]

Thank you for advice! For Mito protocol taking GMS the way I described works for me - I have done many cycles now and on fission days I continue to feel same way as before, which suggests it is working for me. I am middle-aged and don't believe that I have many damaged mitochondria, yet I still continue to feel the effects of mito protocol. Curious how many cycles will it take for me to stop feeling the effects of Mito Protocol.

As for C60 protocol - I am trying it today for the second time. I am doing repeating C60 protocol every 2 weeks. I took 3.5ml of C60 EVOO, but think about switching to 5ml as it is recommended by manufacturer based on my weight.

While stearic acid tastes similar to GMS and it can be taken as powder I took it differently than GMS. The reason is that I start C60 protocol earlier in am and find it most convenient to add stearic acid into my oatmeal replacing butter.

[kurt9]

Let me get this straight, since I will do this protocol this summer. You take mito1 on one day and mito2 on the second day, repeating 2-3 times per week. So if I did two cycles per week, I could do mito1 on Monday, mito2 on Tuesday, then repeat, with mito1on Wednesday and mito2 on Thursday. Is this correct? Or I could space them further apart. Fist cycle would be Monday and Tuesday and the second cycle could be Thursday and Friday.

 

I assume you do not want to drink alcohol on any of the days you do this protocol (I "social" drink on Friday nights - two Rum/cokes with the wife).

[Unclebob]

Let me get this straight, since I will do this protocol this summer. You take mito1 on one day and mito2 on the second day, repeating 2-3 times per week. So if I did two cycles per week, I could do mito1 on Monday, mito2 on Tuesday, then repeat, with mito1on Wednesday and mito2 on Thursday. Is this correct? Or I could space them further apart. Fist cycle would be Monday and Tuesday and the second cycle could be Thursday and Friday.

 

I assume you do not want to drink alcohol on any of the days you do this protocol (I "social" drink on Friday nights - two Rum/cokes with the wife).

 

Kurt

 

I hope this helps.

 

That is what I am doing at the moment after doing the Stem Cell Protocol back to back last week.  So it should work well for you.

 

Be aware though that I was shocked how much my first Fission day got me using Niacin and D-Ribose. For a time today I felt exactly as I would if I had done a really heavy work out. Weak as a baby.

 

So socialising may not be fun on a Fission day.... depending on age and whether you have much Mito damage or not.

 

For the groups information I have done previous iterations of this Protocol using sublingual NMN. But will be binning that off as an approach the effects today were too profound to ignore.

 

Good luck Kurt 

[jimjim]

I am considering doing this protocol.  I have been taking CaAKG, PQQ, NR daily for six months and feel great.  However, my DNAm age did not reduce after doing this for six months according to TruMe and mydnage.com.  Thus, I am turning to this protocol to see if it will reduce my DNAm age.  My PhenoAge is 24 and my chronological age is 41.

 

I want to ask:  I am taking Metformin due to diabetes.  Will this affect the Turnbuckle mitochondia protocol at all?  Thank you.

[Turnbuckle]

I am considering doing this protocol.  I have been taking CaAKG, PQQ, NR daily for six months and feel great.  However, my DNAm age did not reduce after doing this for six months according to TruMe and mydnage.com.  Thus, I am turning to this protocol to see if it will reduce my DNAm age.  My PhenoAge is 24 and my chronological age is 41.

 

I want to ask:  I am taking Metformin due to diabetes.  Will this affect the Turnbuckle mitochondia protocol at all?  Thank you.

 

 

Don't expect this mito protocol to reduce your epigenetic age to any significant degree. This is for getting rid of mutated and epimutated mtDNA. It shouldn't have much impact on nDNA.

[jimjim]

Oh ok. I saw a post on another forum that this could reduce epiage, but I guess not. Thanks for the clarification. Was it some other protocol you created that reduced epiage?

[stephen_b]

Was it some other protocol you created that reduced epiage?

 

Stem cell self-renewal with C60 - C60Oil - LONGECITY

[jimjim]

I just realized I've been doing only fission (and no fusion) for more than 9 months using 1g AKG (CaAKG), 300 NR, and 20mg PQQ per day.  My mitochondria must be all small by now.  I feel fine, I think.  I wonder if I will feel better if I start doing fusion.

[Kentavr]

Has the grey hair turning black trend continuing for you? This is true rejuvenation IMO. Not many things can do that, except perhaps niacin (the one that causes flush). I think Turnbuckle once said he hasn't come across anything that can turn grey hair black. His protocol is going beyond his expectations.

Were you taking Niacin or Niacinamide as N in your N + R?

What about other health markers if you're keeping track?

Josh Mitteldorf in his "ageing matters" blog's latest post has mentioned something like : most epigenetic markers of aging (methylation) are related to mitochondria.

I found information with pictures on Facebook: NMN + spermidine reversed the graying of hair in an elderly man.

[Kentavr]

I just realized I've been doing only fission (and no fusion) for more than 9 months using 1g AKG (CaAKG), 300 NR, and 20mg PQQ per day. My mitochondria must be all small by now. I feel fine, I think. I wonder if I will feel better if I start doing fusion.

PQQ helps to increase the number of new mitochondria. I think that you are carrying out the forced division of mitochondria, and their fusion occurs naturally during the day.

[Kentavr]

I found information with pictures on Facebook: NMN + spermidine reversed the graying of hair in an elderly man.

 

I found this post:

 

https://www.facebook...381258995785843

 

 

 

"This morning I wanted to shave my beard because it was quite long and I noticed something strange. So I decided to take the picture I'm attaching. Note that I am 78 years old and my beard has always been completely white for decades. As you can see, there are a lot of black hairs, the color they had when I was young. I recently took sublingual tablets of BIO NMN and then two jars of PURE NMN powder. Even my hairs are growing black especially at the top of the head and behind the neck."

 

There is a dosage in the comments: 

 

"Three tablets/day, and, after having finished the tablets, three scoops/day"

 

Unfortunately, there is not a word about spermidine, although I was sure that he published this information. 

Edited by Kentavr, 18 May 2021 - 09:07 AM.

[Kentavr]

PQQ helps to increase the number of new mitochondria. I think that you are carrying out the forced division of mitochondria, and their fusion occurs naturally during the day.

 

"Pyrroloquinoline Quinone Stimulates Mitochondrial Biogenesis through cAMP Response Element-binding Protein Phosphorylation and Increased PGC-1α Expression"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2804159/

[Unclebob]

I was doing some research on behalf of a friend who has seen how this protocol has effected me.  He is suffering with zero energy, out of breath and heavy lethargy. There are no major life issues (Dr checked) except for the fact that he has been on lengthy courses (years) of powerful anti fungal medications including Voriconazole, Caspofungin and Itraconazole as well as bouts of Co-amoxiclav antibac (which contains two ingredients, amoxicillin and clavulanic acid).  He thought a possible cause of his zero energy could be mito damage induced from these drugs.  I can only find reference to specific causes drug induced of mito damage scattered through the thread so thought it may be useful to have this in a post.  The actual publication may be worth the read but I have surmised the table below.

 

This is just to provide insight not a definite answer to anyone's personal issues and in that spirit I hope it helps someone.  If anyone does think that my friends medications could have caused issues please let me know.

 

Thanks for your work Turnbuckle I pretty certain its having a positive effect on my own abilities.

 

The source is here:

http://psychrights.o...rialDamage.pdf 

 

And the key table in the publication of drugs known to damage Mitochondria:

 

Drugs Alcoholism medications Disulfiram (Antabusem)

 

Analgesic (for pain) and anti-inflammatory Aspirin, acetaminophen (Tylenol), diclofenac (Voltarenm, Voltarolm, Diclonm, Dicloflexm Difen and Cataflamm), fenoprofen (Nalfonm), indomethacin (Indocinm, Indocidm, Indochron E-Rm Indocin-SRm), Naproxen (Alevem, Naprosynm) Anesthetics Bupivacaine, lidocaine, propofol

 

Angina medications Perhexiline, amiodarone (Cordaronem), Diethylaminoethoxyhexesterol (DEAEH)

 

Antiarrhythmic (regulates heartbeat) Amiodarone (Cordarone)

 

Antibiotics Tetracycline, antimycin A

 

Antidepressants Amitriptyline (Lentizol), amoxapine (Asendis), citalopram (Cipramil), fluoxetine (Prozac, Symbyax, Sarafem, Fontex, Foxetin, Ladose, Fluctin, Prodep, Fludac, Oxetin, Seronil, Lovan)

 

Antipsychotics Chlorpromazine, fluphenazine, haloperidol, risperidone, quetiapine, clozapine, olanzapine

 

Anxiety medications Alprazolam (Xanaxm), diazepam (valium, diastat)

 

Barbiturates Amobarbital (Amytalm), aprobarbital, butabarbital, butalbital (Fiorinalm, hexobarbital (Sombulexm), methylphenobarbital (Mebaralm), pentobarbital (Nembutalm), phenobarbital (Luminalm), primidone, propofol, secobarbital (Seconalm), Talbutalm), thiobarbital

 

Cholesterol medications Statins – atorvastatin (Lipitorm, Torvastm), fluvastatin (Lescolm), lovastatin (Mevacorm, Altocorm), pitavastatin (Livalom, Pitavam), pravastatin (Pravacholm, Selektinem, Lipostatm), rosuvastatin (Crestorm), simvastatin (Zocorm, Lipexm) bile acids – cholestyramine (Questranm), clofibrate (Atromid-Sm), ciprofibrate (Modalimm), colestipol (Colestidm), colesevelam (Welcholm)

 

Cancer (chemotherapy) medications Mitomycin C, profiromycin, adriamycin (also called doxorubicin and hydroxydaunorubicin and included in the following chemotherapeutic regimens – ABVD, CHOP, and FAC)

 

Dementia Tacrine (Cognexm),Galantamine (Reminylm)

 

Diabetes medications Metformin (Fortametm, Glucophagem, Glucophage XR, Riomet 1 ), troglitazone, rosiglitazone, buformin

 

HIV/AIDS medications Atripla, Combivirm, Emtrivam, Epivirm (abacavir sulfate), Epzicom, Hividm (ddC, zalcitabine), Retrovirm (AZT, ZDV, zidovudine), Trizivirm, Truvadam, Videxm (ddI, didanosine), Videxm EC, Vireadm, Zeritm (d4T, stavudine), Ziagenm, Racivirm

 

Epilepsy/Seizure medications Valproic acid (Depaconm, Depakenem, Depakene syrup, Depakotem, depakote ER, depakote sprinkle, divalproex sodium)

 

Mood stabilizers Lithium

 

Parkinson's disease medications Tolcapone (Tasmarm, Entacapone (COMTanm, also in the combination drug Stalevom)

Edited by Unclebob, 27 May 2021 - 03:51 PM.

[kurt9]

I don't recommend this method unless you leave a half our or so before the PQQ. Otherwise I suggest either putting it in a hot beverage, or dissolving it with amino acids like EAA or lysine in a small amount of water in the microwave, then adding it to fruit juice. In any case, establishing fusion first isn't quite as critical with this mito treatment as it is with the stem cell treatment.

 

I can put it in my coffee on fusion mornings.
 

[PAMPAGUY]

I just realized I've been doing only fission (and no fusion) for more than 9 months using 1g AKG (CaAKG), 300 NR, and 20mg PQQ per day.  My mitochondria must be all small by now.  I feel fine, I think.  I wonder if I will feel better if I start doing fusion.

The problem is you need a larger dose of N+R or NR to get past the liver. (this protocol uses 1 gm of N+R each + supercharges it with AKG and PQQ) You have to overwhelm the liver to get precursor into cells.  Getting it into blood stream is not same thing.  300 mg. will not do it even every day.  Never got past the liver.

[PAMPAGUY]

Don't expect this mito protocol to reduce your epigenetic age to any significant degree. This is for getting rid of mutated and epimutated mtDNA. It shouldn't have much impact on nDNA.

I agree, has not changed by Phenoage calculation, but I do have more energy and an increased feeling of well being.  Both lacking as we age.  I'm 75 yo.

[PAMPAGUY]

It is a mix of Ca and Mg salts actually netting 300mg of AKG per capsule.

https://www.kirkmang...-acid-caps.html

 

 

 

 

Simplesa's product is also buffered and is only a Ca salt: https://www.simplesa...COA-AKGPlus.pdf

 

So going with the buffered form is preferred.

This is for those living in Europe.  I just ordered this AKG.  180 capsules at 500 mg. capsule = 90 doses.  Cheaper than Kirkland.  https://www.fruugo.e...060?language=en          Also available on Amazon.com, but not in stock.

 

Edited by PAMPAGUY, 07 June 2021 - 05:28 AM.

[JPY]

I just wanted to add an experience report on the new protocol. I did the previous one for around a year in 2019 to help recover from a post-viral fatigue syndrome. I saw very good results, returning to around 90-95% of my (self-assessed) pre-morbid state. I thought I would go on to reach 100% but it never quite happened. In particular, I still tended to feel washed and sleepy after exercise.

 

I followed the new protocol as laid out by Turnbuckle, with the exception of using Prostaphane (sulforaphane) instead of GMS as a fusion promoter since it agrees with me better. You can see my results for the dumbbell test in the attached chart (using a 3kg weight). I started with a significant gap between the two days which converged around 20 cycles (40 days) at a higher strength level. So it appears that there was some lingering mitochondrial damage over-and-above what I had been able to remove using the previous protocol.

 

In terms of results, I am now feeling a lot better after exercise and am able to push myself more without suffering a backlash after. I am also stronger and have a general sense of greater resilience (despite having a newborn and lacking in sleep). I would therefore conclude that the protocol works and is an upgrade on the previous one.

 

Attached Files

•  Mito protocol.JPG   37.12KB   5 downloads

[yz69]

I just wanted to add an experience report on the new protocol. I did the previous one for around a year in 2019 to help recover from a post-viral fatigue syndrome. I saw very good results, returning to around 90-95% of my (self-assessed) pre-morbid state. I thought I would go on to reach 100% but it never quite happened. In particular, I still tended to feel washed and sleepy after exercise.

 

I followed the new protocol as laid out by Turnbuckle, with the exception of using Prostaphane (sulforaphane) instead of GMS as a fusion promoter since it agrees with me better. You can see my results for the dumbbell test in the attached chart (using a 3kg weight). I started with a significant gap between the two days which converged around 20 cycles (40 days) at a higher strength level. So it appears that there was some lingering mitochondrial damage over-and-above what I had been able to remove using the previous protocol.

 

In terms of results, I am now feeling a lot better after exercise and am able to push myself more without suffering a backlash after. I am also stronger and have a general sense of greater resilience (despite having a newborn and lacking in sleep). I would therefore conclude that the protocol works and is an upgrade on the previous one.

 

Mito protocol.JPG

 

Would you share how you dose the sulforaphane? Thanks!

[JPY]

I used 20mg of Prostaphane, which is a stabilised form of sulforaphane (although I believe only available in Europe). I can't say for sure that this was the optimal dose, but it was sufficient to see a clear difference between the fission and fusion days for me (and also pushed my reps above my baseline taken before I began the protocol). If I were using a supplement that depends on a reaction between glucoraphanin and myrosinase in the gut to produce sulforaphane (e.g. Broccomax), I would probably dose significantly higher.

[MarcD]

I was doing m-fission and m-fusion eod for the last 2 months.

On fission-days I was doing strength-training and on fusion-days endurance-training. 

 

Now I'm stuck in both areas: VO2max stays at 40 and my strength is not increasing anymore. 

 

Do you think it would make sense to train vice versa? So endurance (HIIT) on fission-days and strength on fusion-days?

[stephen_b]

I was doing m-fission and m-fusion eod for the last 2 months.

On fission-days I was doing strength-training and on fusion-days endurance-training. 

 

Now I'm stuck in both areas: VO2max stays at 40 and my strength is not increasing anymore. 

 

Do you think it would make sense to train vice versa? So endurance (HIIT) on fission-days and strength on fusion-days?

 

Maybe your are done? The graphs people have been showing convergence on the time scale you mention.

 

I'm also interested in how this protocol affects endurance (running for me). We know that mitochondria change as a result of the training effect. Apparently one of those beneficial changes due to training is an increase in mitochondria number. I don't know how this is effected by fission though.

 

There are other beneficial effects to training like improved vascularization.