2503 replies to this topic

[Empiricus]

I have been using NMN in my versions of Turnbuckles protocols for almost 4 years on fission days of the mitochondria fission/fusion cycle and NMN for fission when I did my first 6 cycles of the C60 protocol in February and March of this year.

I just finished 3 cycles of C60 over the last 3 weeks and continue to see benefits.

 

 

Would you mind sharing the brand of c60 and NMN you're using?  

[Kelvin]

I use the pureC60oliveoil brand available on Amazon.

My brand of NMN Is UltraHealth.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 October 2022 - 04:46 PM.

[Learner056]

I am in my 80s, I did not realize that I have been taking PQQ - as biogenesis promoter and it is not listed in this particular stack. 

a) What are the consequences, of taking PQQ here, as I don't want to stop taking it unless it is absolutely necessary and decreasing efficacy of stem renewal?

b) maybe it is ok, since I take protocol at Noon (waking up) and take PQQ around midnight (sleeping time)?

c) sorry if this is too much asking.  I use nebula genomics WGS (whole genome sequencing) and their tools (gene.iobio), or maybe there is a better tool or resource to understand/approximate our possible mitochondrial bottlenecks/peculiarities, specially Complex1 through 5.  

Edited by Learner056, 22 October 2022 - 07:22 PM.

[Repack Racing]

I am fascinated (possibly concerned) about the NMN lengthening telomeres discussion.  Before I took the full dive down the longevity rabbit hole I started with only NMN and C60.  All I can say about it is I definitely feel like it preserved my youth.  My sports performance continued to improve through my late 40s.  I wasn't taking anything else except a multi.  That said, since I wasn't doing the mito protocol or stem cell protocol at that time, it seems there wasn't a problem.  Now after the findings regarding telomeres over the past year (but news to me) it seems there may be a potential problem since Turnbuckle advises against any telomerase promoters during the different protocols.  Based on my experience with other telomere promoters, I agree with that.  However, I have continued to take NMN on fission days (along with NR, nico+ribose - following the concept of multiple pathways), for quite some time without it seeming to be a problem.  I say seeming because maybe my results will be better if I stop NMN and perhaps run it for a short time when doing ONLY telomerase promoters.  I think it is clear that telomere lengthening can have benefits.  The potential problem, in my mind, is doing it during the fission/fusion protocol.  That's just my speculation.  I'll try it and see what happens.  One downside is that it seems the best results from NMN come when taking it over a long period.  Perhaps very high doses for short period of time will still have some benefits, especially if doing the other protocols separately.  Just a theory.  I'll continue to take NR/Nico + ribose.  Interestingly, the studies I have found regarding those two supplements and telomeres is that they "stabilize" telomeres as opposed to lengthening, or perhaps they have not studied that aspect.  I have definitely found that focusing on one process/protocol at a time is better than taking a bunch of stuff at once. 

 

I also definitely feel better when taking C60 on a regular basis.  I don't really cycle it - probably about 5 days a week on average.  I put some space between fission and C60 on fission days - fission early morning, C60 in afternoon.

 

I am taking my very first epigenetic test next week and will report the results.  It might not be that great because I had a big setback taking epilation and humanin together a year and a half ago (don't do it!), but hopefully have made improvements since then.

 

Stay tuned - comments appreciated.

[QuestforLife]

You children need to complete your incomplete homework, The Impacts of Short-Term NMN Supplementation on Serum Metabolism, Fecal Microbiota, and Telomere Length in Pre-Aging Phase - PMC (nih.gov).  Telomerase is ubiquitous, maybe even tied to proliferation?.  Nicotinamide/NMN substantially increases telomere length, almost 2x 

 

I posted on this paper, here

 

It is not clear to me that NMN activates telomerase, I'ver never seen any pubication to that effect. If I had to guess, and I do, I'd say NMN is profoundly altering the ROS level in leukocytes and this is leading to slower telomerase attrition with division. If the balance of replacement shifts even slightly, you'll see a apparent 'increase' in telomerase length in these downstream cells.

 

It is an open question what impact this would have on Turnbuckle's protocol. But I remind all those trying it, that epigenetic methylation tests are now inexpensive. We would have made much faster progress if more people were contributing their results. 

Edited by QuestforLife, 23 October 2022 - 08:16 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Mito fission via NAD+ promotion can be easily achieved by nicotinamide, NMN, NR, and niacin. So which is best for this protocol? Here’s the way I see these products, listed in order of preference —

 

1. Nicotinamide (NAM) works very quickly, and thus timing is not a factor when used with other supplements. It is the cheapest and may be taken with ribose.

2. NMN (Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) is said to be absorbed very quickly*, within minutes, which if true, leads me to question how it could affect gut biota. However, if modified biota does lengthen telomeres, that is bad for this protocol. However, it may not do this when used intermittently.

3. Niacin (nicotinic acid) also works very quickly, but produces a flush that many cannot tolerate, and may result in an acid stomach due to histamine release. It also has a rep for lowering triglycerides and increasing HDL, benefits that are outside the purpose of this protocol.

4. Nicotinamide riboside (NR) has to be digested back to nicotinamide and ribose to be absorbed, thus there is a several hour delay — not good if you want to combine it with other things. 

 

Bottom line: nicotinamide is the best mito fission agent for this protocol. Ribose may be added to bump up the results.

 

*Our present study clearly shows that NMN is quickly absorbed from the gut into blood circulation within 2–3 min and also cleared from blood circulation into tissues within 15 min. The isotopic tracing experiment with C13-D-NMN also confirmed this fast absorption of NMN and its immediate conversion to NAD+ in tissues.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5668137/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 October 2022 - 03:45 PM.

[Learner056]

I love this protocol and its results, though I find Ribose to be a critical piece (as playing a positive role) within the fission part (my whole family suffers from a parkinsonian phenotype so these peculiarities are very important to me).  But I have always been bothered by this research: D-Ribose Induces Cellular Protein Glycation and Impairs Mouse Spatial Cognition - PMC (nih.gov).  Maybe I don't read it correctly, it is VERY hard hitting (5x more glycating than table sugar), it shatters some of my beliefs, could you read it, maybe their experiment has certain flaws that I am not interpreting correctly.

 

 

 nicotinamide is the best mito fission agent for this protocol. Ribose may be added to bump up the results.

 

Edited by Learner056, 23 October 2022 - 05:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

For those worried about the optional ribose (.5 to 1g, typically, same as the nicotinamide dose), this protocol doesn't use much and not very often, thus it is not of much concern. Ribose is needed for making RNA, DNA and ATP, after all. The mouse study referred to above used the daily injected equivalent of 16-160 grams for an 80kg man. Much higher than here. If one is concerned about Parkinson's, they ought to try my mitochondrial protocol, as mitochondrial dysfunction is central to many CNS diseases.

 

Neurodegenerative diseases are a class of incurable and debilitating diseases characterized by progressive degeneration and death of cells in the central nervous system. They have multiple underlying mechanisms; however, they all share common degenerative features, such as mitochondrial dysfunction. 

https://www.frontier...22.1014251/full

 

 

As long as PINK1 and Parkin have some functionality, my mito protocol should be helpful. A link can be found here. I refer to a plot on that linked page but forgot to add it at the time, so I've attached it below.

Attached Files

•  experiment.JPG   68.64KB   0 downloads

[nadaepeu]

It is an open question what impact this would have on Turnbuckle's protocol. But I remind all those trying it, that epigenetic methylation tests are now inexpensive. We would have made much faster progress if more people were contributing their results. 

 

Can anyone suggest a methylation test for the EU?

Edited by nadaepeu, 24 October 2022 - 11:55 AM.

[FWP]

Can anyone suggest a methylation test for the EU?[/quote]

Trume ships to Europe. I have used https://hkgepitherapeutics.com/ one time but a bit more expensive. Hoping to finally do a second test this winter.

[FWP]

Concerning the second test, I guess one has to stick to the same supplier if you want to make a comparison? I have no clue on how simular the companies are in there approach.

[Confectman]

I can't recommend test from Europe. They are expensive and not that accurate at all. I bought 5x Cerascreen Age Test (195€/pc). 5 persons send their sample to the lab, and all of us get the same result (-5years to physical age).  After complaining they returned the money and excuses that they use an external lab.

 

TruMe cost 110USD (usually you can find 20% voucher online). You can ship with UPS Saver which cost another 40€ and get the result within 2 weeks.

 

To me the best & cheapest way to check the status several times a year.

[Blu]

I would be glad to know which are the reputable suppliers of C60 oil in EU, as well.

[Empiricus]

I would be glad to know which are the reputable suppliers of C60 oil in EU, as well.

 

Wherever they come from, we could use some reviews of commercially sourced c60.  I hope to submit one after I've tried a couple more brands.

[ambivalent]

I'm writing this carefully in the aftermath of nearly losing my life.  Last week, I underwent emergency surgery for a bowel perforation of unknown origin. The surgeon kept suggesting it was from a past appendectomy  - but that operation was 50 years ago. He said I had a lot of scar tissue.

 

I awoke in intense pain during the 48 hr period during which I do the protocol here.  I realize that correlation is not causation.  I mixed the stearic acid with lots of lecithin as mildly warm goop and managed a small BM despite great pain. I guess I was 'cleared out' but rushed to hospital knowing something was very wrong.

 

So, did the mix cause some irritation and weakened intestine?  Heal some old scar with stem cells but not enough?  Or was this all coincidence after age 70?

 

I am an adult and accept responsibility for my actions. On google search, I don't see anything specific that might trigger my unfortunate events. I would appreciate learned input.

 

 

How is your recovery progressing eigthman?

[Repack Racing]

I got my Trume biological age results back and it's not pretty.  Despite years of efforts, I am 5 years older biologically than chronologically.

 

Chron age: 51

Bio age: 56

 

Very disheartening.  After my peptide mishap I was hoping to make some ground, but nothing so far.  I'll take another test in a few more months of only doing the Turnbuckle protocol.

 

Everyone please be careful out there.

[Turnbuckle]

I got my Trume biological age results back and it's not pretty.  Despite years of efforts, I am 5 years older biologically than chronologically.

 

Chron age: 51

Bio age: 56

 

Very disheartening.  After my peptide mishap I was hoping to make some ground, but nothing so far.  I'll take another test in a few more months of only doing the Turnbuckle protocol.

 

Everyone please be careful out there.

 

Was this your first epigenetic test? And what was this "peptide mishap?"

[Repack Racing]

Was this your first epigenetic test? And what was this "peptide mishap?"

 

Turnbuckle,

 

Yes, my first test.  The peptide debacle is when I injected both Humanin (mito peptide I had never used before) and Epilaton (telomerase) at the same time.  It literally aged me 10 years in one single day.  I went from continually improved athletic performance from age 46-49 (using a variety of longevity strategies) to an overnight drop of about 20%, which I have maintained since then, but no gains (still 20% below age 49).  I woke up with huge bags under my eyes, which have somewhat reduced, but not gone away.  Wrinkled skin, fatigue, etc.  As I mentioned in previous posts, the two peptides must have had some really bad reaction in my cells - as you have noted mito and telomeres are not good together - but this was prior to knowing that.

 

At any rate, before that happened I felt about 5 years younger than my chron age and since then I have tried to make gains but I think the damage is done, unfortunately. I'll continue to work on it but it's an uphill battle and really unfortunate considering my whole goal was to preserve my youth.  I'd say I feel about the 5 years older per the test, although I was hopeful I was wrong.
 

It's hard to believe one injection can have that profound of an effect, but it did.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle,

 

Yes, my first test.  The peptide debacle is when I injected both Humanin (mito peptide I had never used before) and Epilaton (telomerase) at the same time.  It literally aged me 10 years in one single day.  I went from continually improved athletic performance from age 46-49 (using a variety of longevity strategies) to an overnight drop of about 20%, which I have maintained since then, but no gains (still 20% below age 49).  I woke up with huge bags under my eyes, which have somewhat reduced, but not gone away.  Wrinkled skin, fatigue, etc.  As I mentioned in previous posts, the two peptides must have had some really bad reaction in my cells - as you have noted mito and telomeres are not good together - but this was prior to knowing that.

 

At any rate, before that happened I felt about 5 years younger than my chron age and since then I have tried to make gains but I think the damage is done, unfortunately. I'll continue to work on it but it's an uphill battle and really unfortunate considering my whole goal was to preserve my youth.  I'd say I feel about the 5 years older per the test, although I was hopeful I was wrong.
 

It's hard to believe one injection can have that profound of an effect, but it did.

 

 

This is interesting. Epitalon promotes telomerase, thus blocking apoptosis of senescent cells, while humanin and MOTS-c increase a subset of SASP factors in both non-senescent and senescent cells. The combination thus giving senescent cells a new lease on life while increasing their negative effects on other cells. A very unfortunate combination.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 November 2022 - 05:59 PM.

[Repack Racing]

This is interesting. Epilalon promotes telomerase, thus blocking apoptosis of senescent cells, while humanin and MOTS-c increase a subset of SASP factors in both non-senescent and senescent cells. The combination thus giving senescent cells a new lease on life while increasing their negative effects on other cells. A very unfortunate combination.

 

Yep.  At the very least I should have experimented with a micro dose, which is my normal protocol.  The one time I didn't, go figure.  It is still absolutely crazy that this much damage can be done with one dosage...
 

[ambivalent]

I have been taking some very large doses of fisetin with some c60 but plan on adding PQQ - would this be best done seprately? It is a few days since the last dose of fisetin, but only yesterday for c60 - no more than a sip. I have taken 100mg of PQQ a couple of hours ago and currently feel really good - doubt I have taken it since covid. The fisetin, as documented, stimulates mitophagy so PQQ stimulating biogenesis, would seem like a good introdutction but the question is timing. 

 

I probably need to do a period of stearic acid too, which I haven't done for months, which I assume could be done in isolation to build up stem cell stores.

 

Also, dosing of PQQ, do we have anecdotal evidence of safe or perhaps tested tolerance levels?

Edited by ambivalent, 08 November 2022 - 05:26 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I have been taking some very large doses of fisetin with some c60 but plan on adding PQQ - would this be best done seprately? It is a few days since the last dose of fisetin, but only yesterday for c60 - no more than a sip. I have taken 100mg of PQQ a couple of hours ago and currently feel really good - doubt I have taken it since covid. The fisetin, as documented, stimulates mitophagy so PQQ stimulating biogenesis, would seem like a good introdutction but the question is timing. 

 

I probably need to do a period of stearic acid too, which I haven't done for months, which I assume could be done in isolation to build up stem cell stores.

 

Also, dosing of PQQ, do we have anecdotal evidence of safe or perhaps tested tolerance levels?

 

 

If you are using fisetin for its senolytic properties, I suggest taking nicotinamide with it (and optionally, ribose), as you need mito fission for apoptosis. Do not use stearic acid or DHM with it.

[ambivalent]

Thanks,

 

I am still cautious on nicotinamide and ribose as it had such bad effects a few years ago, and I became super-sensitive to it, though it would most likely be better now. But if you're suggestig nicotinamide will augment the senolytic effects of fisetin then I will give it a go as I didn't receive any strong senolytic symptoms last time. 

 

I am taking the c60 within a couple of hours of the dose to replace the senescent cells fisetin clears out. 

 

I may halve the recent experimental doses, which if they are to be believed, were back to back days of sublingual 30 g fisetin + 6 g of quercitin. Unknown and cheap brand, though. But I have felt effects of taking it, improved muscle tone and maybe a more youthful appearance as well as alertness once the fog clears.

 

There are an array of benefits beyond senolytical with fiseting, naturally, and I want to see where it goes even if the s-cells are cleared.

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 08 November 2022 - 08:10 PM.

[eighthman]

In reply about my condition, I am healing very well.  In getting old, I wondered aloud to the surgeon, 'is there some age at which you just give up because the person is too old to heal'?.  He didn't seem to think so. Very reassuring.

 

I keep trying to carefully avoid doing anything potentially stupid or risky ( being old), yet accidents still happen. I burned my leg with lye while fixing a drain pipe.  That's healing, too.

 

I have returned to the protocol using the glycerol stearate and it is much easier to deal with.  I just wish somebody would come up with a protocol for the Yamanaka Factors as I feel good - but skin aging still progresses.  

[Empiricus]

I have returned to the protocol using the glycerol stearate and it is much easier to deal with.  I just wish somebody would come up with a protocol for the Yamanaka Factors as I feel good - but skin aging still progresses.  

 

Eighthman, you seem to be suggesting that this Turnbuckle protocol cannot reverse skin aging.  It sounds like you are basing this statement on your experiences.

 

How long have you been doing the protocol?  You mentioned taking straight stearic acid for a while.   You mentioned baking it into brownies in the past, so how long were you taking straight stearic acid?  I wonder if taking stearic acid the wrong way might explain why your skin isn't improving.

 

Given the relatively rapid turnover of skin cells, I would tend to think skin would be one of the first things to improve if this protocol works as hypothesized.  

Edited by Empiricus, 09 November 2022 - 12:17 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Eighthman, you seem to be suggesting that this Turnbuckle protocol cannot reverse skin aging.  It sounds like you are basing this statement on your experiences.

 

 

On a previous post (#2024), he said he had been using stearic acid without baking it into brownies. Instead, he "mixed the stearic acid with lots of lecithin as mildly warm goop." This would not produce a state of fusion. A while back, another user thought he could just chew up stearic flakes with his teeth. He too reported poor results, saying he looked older, not younger.

[eighthman]

My daughter reported that my grandson won't stop expressing wonder at how young I look (relative to age), so something is working. I just thought the Yamanaka factors were dramatic as to changes.

 

The glycerol stearate is far easier to use,  a real improvement.

 

I continue to be stunned by the subtlety of the aging process that the protocol here exposes.  It helps to explain why so many hopeful interventions against aging do little because the attempts at repair may involve contradictory actions.  Now, I wonder about autophagy supplements on days separate from the protocol.  Patching up old cells (autophagy) contradicts killing them off (senolytics) and replacing them (protocol, stem cells).  

[Repack Racing]

My daughter reported that my grandson won't stop expressing wonder at how young I look (relative to age), so something is working. I just thought the Yamanaka factors were dramatic as to changes.

 

The glycerol stearate is far easier to use,  a real improvement.

 

I continue to be stunned by the subtlety of the aging process that the protocol here exposes.  It helps to explain why so many hopeful interventions against aging do little because the attempts at repair may involve contradictory actions.  Now, I wonder about autophagy supplements on days separate from the protocol.  Patching up old cells (autophagy) contradicts killing them off (senolytics) and replacing them (protocol, stem cells).  

 

I am interested in Turnbuckle's thoughts on this.  It seems interesting.  I am leaning now towards really separating different protocols to effect a better result and avoid bad interactions.  I guess one question is how often/long must each protocol be run to to be effective.  For example, if you only do fission once every 4 days, is that enough to be effective?
 

[Turnbuckle]

if you only do fission once every 4 days, is that enough to be effective?

 

 

The body is a work in progress. Some 300 billion cells are lost and replaced each day, a truly enormous number. Most of those daily loses are due to reasons independent of mito morphology. Red blood cells, for instance, don't have mitochondria and thus aren't affected by fission and fusion, while epidermal and intestinal cells are shed mechanically and thus don't need apoptosis. But for those cells that become senescent and are removed by apoptosis, fission is a necessary element. 

 

In general, I believe it is healthier to be in fission than in fusion. Fission is needed for mitophagy and apoptosis, and without those, all bodily systems run down.

 

Fusion has its place, of course, but should be used judiciously. It is necessary for SC proliferation, obviously, and it is protective when toxins are dealt with, and when ill with a virus*, as some viruses employ apoptosis to release their progeny. So fusion is good for SC expansion, hangovers, AD treatments, colds, flu, and the like. Fission is good for everything else.

 

My own experience: For more than twenty years I took some 3 grams of niacin a day, and everyone thought I was a lot younger than I was. In the business world, that was occasionally annoying. Then came the news that niacin might cause liver damage**, so I stopped. Only then did I begin to age at a normal rate. In fact, I was aging even more rapidly than normal. Niacin had ensured that my senescent cells were being eliminated, but wasn't beneficial for my SC reserves.

 

*Rhinovirus and Cell Death

 

Programmed cell death is a key component of the host antiviral response, but picornaviruses, including rhinoviruses (RVs), are able to modulate cell death at different stages of virus lifecycle; inhibition of apoptosis early in infection facilitates virus survival, while induction of apoptosis later in infection may aid virus release. In addition to apoptosis, we now know that there are several kinds of programmed cell death, e.g., necroptosis, pyroptosis, ferroptosis and parthanatos; all of which are implicated in one or more virus infections.  https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC8067602/

 

 

**As is now known, it's mainly sustained-release niacin that can be a problem with hepatotoxicity.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 10 November 2022 - 01:59 PM.

[eighthman]

Before there was anything else, I used to do the Acipimox protocol by Bergamini.

 

https://www.ingentac...000007/art00001

 

The idea was to force the body into dumping bad proteins using the niacin analogue.  Rats tested supposedly had nice clean livers like young rats.   The rest of the body, I don't know.  Obviously, very flushy stuff.