8 replies to this topic

[heymazing]

To all you in the know, which of these is best to take, or is it beneficial to take all 3 together?

Why do I ask about the difference between these 3?...Well...

Lecithin contains Phosphatidylcholine.
Phosphatidylserine is made from Lecithin (but is not contained naturally within it).
Choline must be similar to Phosphatidylcholine, no?

So is it overkill to take all 3? There seems to be some overlap.

I ask because I currently own Lecithin and Phosphatidylserine...and I have heard that I need to add choline in my diet. But with Lecithin and Phosphatidylserine, I should be good, no?

For mood, focus, brain powers...which of the 3 or which combo of the 3 would you take? Can I be taking too MUCH of something by combining these?

FWIW, I currently also take
Alpha Lipoic Acid – 100 mg
L-Carnosine – 500 mg
Alcar - 500 mg
Modafanil - 25mg (with breaks every week)
Tianeptine 12.5mg/3x/day
Magnesium Asporotate – 400 mg.
Zinc (the kind you get at the supermarket) – 50mg.
Fish oil. 2000mg.
L-Theanine – 100-600mg
Once Daily Multi-vit

Thanks in advance for your helpful feedback!

[renfr]

Soy lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine.
Choline and soy lecithin have almost the same benefits as to memory, skin, etc...
Yes you can take too much if you mix the three, it will cause SLUDGE syndrome, if you don't OD it will cause unpleasant symptoms such as polyuria, extreme gas, bowel movement, darkening of vision (due to miosis).
Phosphatidylcholine has a long half life (20-24h) so you wouldn't take it everyday if you were to mix cholinergics.
To me 15g soy lecithin and 500mg choline is already too much and cause SLUDGE.

[heymazing]

Soy lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine.
Choline and soy lecithin have almost the same benefits as to memory, skin, etc...
Yes you can take too much if you mix the three, it will cause SLUDGE syndrome, if you don't OD it will cause unpleasant symptoms such as polyuria, extreme gas, bowel movement, darkening of vision (due to miosis).
Phosphatidylcholine has a long half life (20-24h) so you wouldn't take it everyday if you were to mix cholinergics.
To me 15g soy lecithin and 500mg choline is already too much and cause SLUDGE.

Thanks, that's the info I was looking for.

I currently own lecithin capsules (they look like fish oil caps) and phosphatidylserine. I do not own Choline or phosphatidylcholine.

So - Is it overkill to take both Lecithin caps and phosphatidylserine? Should I alternate daily? Take days off?

Suggestions about good dosages?

[renfr]

Soy lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine.
Choline and soy lecithin have almost the same benefits as to memory, skin, etc...
Yes you can take too much if you mix the three, it will cause SLUDGE syndrome, if you don't OD it will cause unpleasant symptoms such as polyuria, extreme gas, bowel movement, darkening of vision (due to miosis).
Phosphatidylcholine has a long half life (20-24h) so you wouldn't take it everyday if you were to mix cholinergics.
To me 15g soy lecithin and 500mg choline is already too much and cause SLUDGE.

Thanks, that's the info I was looking for.

I currently own lecithin capsules (they look like fish oil caps) and phosphatidylserine. I do not own Choline or phosphatidylcholine.

So - Is it overkill to take both Lecithin caps and phosphatidylserine? Should I alternate daily? Take days off?

Suggestions about good dosages?

From my soy lecithin bottle it says 260mg phosphatidylcholine per gram of soy lecithin.
10g is fine, 15g already causes some unpleasant symptoms.
If you were to add phosphatidylserine then don't take more than 5g of soy lecithin.
Phosphatidylserine is another important phospholipid and doesn't act in the same areas so it's a good idea to take both.
In general you should take from time to time some days off to avoid downregulation, for instance you could take one week off every month, etc... so that you still feel the effects.

But then it all depends of your sensibility, some people can take up to 30-100g soy lecithin a day (for MS) and they're fine. Just try it yourself and you'll see what's your spot dose.

Edited by renfr, 26 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Tate]

Lecithin contains Phosphatidylcholine.
Phosphatidylserine is made from Lecithin (but is not contained naturally within it).
Choline must be similar to Phosphatidylcholine, no?

I just wanted to add that according to this paper Phosphatidylserine is present in Soybean Lecithin at around 5.9%. Which seems insignificant but considering the average dose is ~3 grams that would provide 180mg of Phosphatidylserine, even higher if you take a lecithin extract standardized to higher phospholipid content.

[dudekd]

Soy lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine.
Choline and soy lecithin have almost the same benefits as to memory, skin, etc...
Yes you can take too much if you mix the three, it will cause SLUDGE syndrome, if you don't OD it will cause unpleasant symptoms such as polyuria, extreme gas, bowel movement, darkening of vision (due to miosis).
Phosphatidylcholine has a long half life (20-24h) so you wouldn't take it everyday if you were to mix cholinergics.
To me 15g soy lecithin and 500mg choline is already too much and cause SLUDGE.

Not to disparage but to be honest, your post is inaccurate and when wrong information is presented as right information it can be dangerous.

To begin, let's talk about lecithin. It's a relatively non-specific catch-all word meant to describe yellowish fats that occur in biology--most frequently in eggs, soybeans, and other seeds and things. As such, lecithin is actually composed of many molecules, and phosphatidylcholine is one of them. On this part, the quoted material is fine.

Phosphatidylcholine (PC), meanwhile is a phospholipid. It is a long skinny molecule with two chemically distinct termini. On one end is the fatty part (the "phosphatidyl" contributor). On the other end is a non-fatty part (the "choline" contributor). The difference between PC and phosphatidylserine (PS) is a mere swapping of the non-fatty choline for serine. PS and PC are part of the surfaces of every cell in your body. They are called glycerophospholipids, and these are essential building blocks for building the lipid bilayers that surround every cell to define those cells' insides from their outsides.

Taking these things--even with choline on top--cannot and will not cause "SLUDGE syndrome." SLUDGE syndrome is a specific type of neurologic and hormonal dysfunction that happens when a person's "parasympathetic system" is critically hyperactive. It tends to involve over-production (or under-degradation) of a neuro-chemical called acetylcholine. And, sure, acetylcholine is derivative of choline. But your body doesn't use everything you put in it. And your neurons are not going to make too much acetylcholine simply because their body ate too much choline.

Nerve gases cause SLUDGE syndrome; causing SLUDGE syndrome was the goal when many nerve gases were developed. Certain Alzheimer's drugs or other drugs (especially in overdose), including some fertilizers and insecticides cause SLUDGE syndrome. Taking an over-the-counter supplement is sensationally unlikely to cause SLUDGE syndrome.

To the OP, what is more likely if you take all 3 of these things, your cells and body may (or may not) be negligibly healthier, but what those cells/body don't need in a normal day in terms of lecithin and PS will be stored as very expensive body fat and what those cells/body don't need in a normal day in terms of choline will be expelled as very expensive urine. There is no evidence these things improve cognition. Only the circumstancial evidence that these molecules just so happen to exist in the brain. But they also appear in every other tissue.

Edited by dudekd, 22 January 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[William Sterog]

Soy lecithin contains:

• Phosphatidylserine (PS; phosphatidic acid bound to serine) at around 3% total phospholipids[4]
• Phosphatidylcholine (PC; phosphatidic acid bound to Cholinergic) at up to 29-31.7% of phospholipids[5][4]
• Phosphatidylethanolamine (PE; phosphatidic acid bound to ethanolamine) at up to 20.8-23% of phospholipids[5][4]
• Phosphatidylinositol (PI; phosphatidic acid bound to Inositol) up to 15-17.5% of phospholipids[5][4]
• Phosphatidic acid (PA; 7-17.5% of total phospholipids[5][4])
• Phytosterols (most as glycosides) including β-sitosterol, sitostanol, and sitosteryl β-d-glucoside[6]
• Phytoglycolipids (14.8% total phospholipids[4])

With the lipid composition of the above phospholipids accounting for:

• Linoleic acid at 64%[4]
• Palmitic acid at 14%[4]
• Oleic acid at 10%[4]
• Linolenic acid at 7%[4]
• Stearic acid at 4%[4]

 

 

 

Soy lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine.
Choline and soy lecithin have almost the same benefits as to memory, skin, etc...
Yes you can take too much if you mix the three, it will cause SLUDGE syndrome, if you don't OD it will cause unpleasant symptoms such as polyuria, extreme gas, bowel movement, darkening of vision (due to miosis).
Phosphatidylcholine has a long half life (20-24h) so you wouldn't take it everyday if you were to mix cholinergics.
To me 15g soy lecithin and 500mg choline is already too much and cause SLUDGE.

Not to disparage but to be honest, your post is inaccurate and when wrong information is presented as right information it can be dangerous.

To begin, let's talk about lecithin. It's a relatively non-specific catch-all word meant to describe yellowish fats that occur in biology--most frequently in eggs, soybeans, and other seeds and things. As such, lecithin is actually composed of many molecules, and phosphatidylcholine is one of them. On this part, the quoted material is fine.

Phosphatidylcholine (PC), meanwhile is a phospholipid. It is a long skinny molecule with two chemically distinct termini. On one end is the fatty part (the "phosphatidyl" contributor). On the other end is a non-fatty part (the "choline" contributor). The difference between PC and phosphatidylserine (PS) is a mere swapping of the non-fatty choline for serine. PS and PC are part of the surfaces of every cell in your body. They are called glycerophospholipids, and these are essential building blocks for building the lipid bilayers that surround every cell to define those cells' insides from their outsides.

Taking these things--even with choline on top--cannot and will not cause "SLUDGE syndrome." SLUDGE syndrome is a specific type of neurologic and hormonal dysfunction that happens when a person's "parasympathetic system" is critically hyperactive. It tends to involve over-production (or under-degradation) of a neuro-chemical called acetylcholine. And, sure, acetylcholine is derivative of choline. But your body doesn't use everything you put in it. And your neurons are not going to make too much acetylcholine simply because their body ate too much choline.

Nerve gases cause SLUDGE syndrome; causing SLUDGE syndrome was the goal when many nerve gases were developed. Certain Alzheimer's drugs or other drugs (especially in overdose), including some fertilizers and insecticides cause SLUDGE syndrome. Taking an over-the-counter supplement is sensationally unlikely to cause SLUDGE syndrome.

To the OP, what is more likely if you take all 3 of these things, your cells and body may (or may not) be negligibly healthier, but what those cells/body don't need in a normal day in terms of lecithin and PS will be stored as very expensive body fat and what those cells/body don't need in a normal day in terms of choline will be expelled as very expensive urine. There is no evidence these things improve cognition. Only the circumstancial evidence that these molecules just so happen to exist in the brain. But they also appear in every other tissue.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22017963

 

 

 

The effects of IQPLUS Focus on cognitive function, mood and endocrine response before and following acute exercise.

Parker AG1, Gordon J, Thornton A, Byars A, Lubker J, Bartlett M, Byrd M, Oliver J, Simbo S, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Kreider RB.

Author information

 

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Phosphatidylserine (PS) is a phospholipid found in cell membranes of most animals and plants. PS has been shown to reduce stress and increase performance in runners, cyclists and golfers. The purpose of this study was to investigate the effects of a PS containing formulation on cognitive function, mood and endocrine response before and after intense resistance exercise.

METHODS:

18 lower body, resistance trained, college aged males ingested 14 days of supplement (IQPLUS Focus, providing 400 mg of soy-derived PS) and a Placebo (PL), in a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, cross-over manner. Following 14 days of supplementation, participants performed an acute bout of lower body resistance training. Mood (Profile of Mood States, POMS) and cognitive function (Serial Subtraction Test, SST) were measured prior to, 5 minutes after, and 60 minutes after exercise. Venous blood samples were collected prior to, and 5, 15, 25, 40 and 60 minutes after exercise. Blood samples were analyzed for plasma cortisol and testosterone. Data were analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA.

RESULTS:

PS supplementation significantly reduced the time needed for a correct calculation on the SST by 20% (reduced by 1.27 s per calculation; PL: 6.4 s, PS: 5.13 s; p = 0.001), and reduced the total amount of errors by 39% (PL: 1.28 + .69, PS: .78 + .27, p = 0.53), and increased the amount of correct calculations by 13% (PL: 22.1 + 2.24, PS: 24.9 + 1.52, p = 0.07) prior to or in response to exercise compared to PL. Following exercise, there was no difference in SST scores between PS and PL. There were no significant changes in regards to mood or endocrine response to exercise as a result of PS supplementation.

CONCLUSION:

PS supplementation significantly increased cognitive function prior to exercise. Improved cognitive function could benefit athletes and non-athletes alike. PS did not appear to affect mood or endocrine response prior to or following resistance exercise.

 

Edited by William Sterog, 09 April 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[rollo]

I didn't want to create a new topic for this.

 

Can anyone tell me how much choline is in 10g of soy lecithin granules? 

 

According to cronometer I'm only getting 255mg in my current diet, which is about half the recommended daily intake, and I want to fix this by taking lecithin.

 

Thanks.

[AnahimSkywalker]

I'm on a mission to clear up much confusion regarding lipids, fat, and oil. 

Please go here https://avanaturals....-get-rid-of-fat