149 replies to this topic

[YoungSchizo]

 

before embarking on zyprexa, google zyprexa + diabetes. there are people claiming they got diabetes years after discontinuing zyprexa. others who connect weight gain and subsequent diabetes to zyprexa and so on.

 

don't want to be alarmist, i've taken it myself and it did work well, just be aware that there is this risk and educate yourself about it.

 

What is the proposed mechanism behind this metabolic alteration?

 

In theory, he should be able to buy a blood-glucose tester and see if his levels are ok, and thereby circumvent any such issues - if they go awry, he can start tapering the drug, and perhaps test another antipsychotic.

 

Apparently, there's a home test for INSULIN levels being worked on! The successful study was 6 years ago, so in theory, it could be on market now, or very, very soon.

 

 

https://www.scienced...10224103240.htm

 

https://www.thediabe...es-test-strips/
 

 

With these, he wouldn't need to worry about such things, he could measure it and be completely safe. Once a week should be sufficient to detect alterations.

 

 

I've been on Zyprexa for 10 years or so, various dosages of 2.5mg up to 15mg. Even on the lowest dosage (2.5mg) it still makes me fat. Zyprexa coupled with Samidorphan is in phase III trials, in the trials they were able to reduce weight gain up to 40% 

 

Before I started drinking I was able to counteract the weight gain of (2.5mg) Zyprexa with Metformin (2000mg daily) and exercise. I was even able to lose weight faster on that combo (without rigorously dieting). 

Edited by YoungSchizo, 22 September 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[kurdishfella]

I got some more info about what I think causes my anxiety . An overactive 5ht2c causes something called the hpa axis to be overactive .
"
The HPA axis also communicates with several regions of the brain, including the limbic system, which controlsmotivation and mood, with the amygdala, which generates fear in response to danger, and with the hippocampus, which plays an important part in memory formation as well as in mood and motivation.

"


(edit) wait on wiki it says zyprexa is an inverse agonist wtf is that so its actually not an antagonist .so wouldnt agomelatine be a better option even if the antagonism is weak? watever zyprexa worked last time anyway who knows how.

Edited by farshad, 22 September 2017 - 06:47 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

I got some more info about what I think causes my anxiety . An overactive 5ht2c causes something called the hpa axis to be overactive .
"
The HPA axis also communicates with several regions of the brain, including the limbic system, which controlsmotivation and mood, with the amygdala, which generates fear in response to danger, and with the hippocampus, which plays an important part in memory formation as well as in mood and motivation. 

"

 

 

You can "reset" your overactive HPA axis with the drug Mifepristone. Have a look into that.

[kurdishfella]

lol dude i cant use a med used to abort babies how did u even find that out ?just gonna go with zyprexa dont wanna make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Edited by farshad, 22 September 2017 - 06:56 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I got some more info about what I think causes my anxiety . An overactive 5ht2c causes something called the hpa axis to be overactive .
"
The HPA axis also communicates with several regions of the brain, including the limbic system, which controlsmotivation and mood, with the amygdala, which generates fear in response to danger, and with the hippocampus, which plays an important part in memory formation as well as in mood and motivation.

"


(edit) wait on wiki it says zyprexa is an inverse agonist wtf is that so its actually not an antagonist .so wouldnt agomelatine be a better option even if the antagonism is weak? watever zyprexa worked last time anyway who knows how.

 

Inverse agonism means that it connects to the receptor the same way a agonist does, but not enough to actually activate the receptor - the end-result ends up being that the body's own natural agonists can't connect to the receptor and the receptors activity decreases. The end-result is the same as an antagonist, it's just that it goes about it in a different way.

[YoungSchizo]

lol dude i cant use a med used to abort babies how did u even find that out ?just gonna go with zyprexa dont wanna make it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

Have a look at this thread, lots of info on Mifepristone and the HPA axis. (I personally was interested in it years ago because it was in phase III trials for psychotic depression.)

[kurdishfella]

I got some more info about what I think causes my anxiety . An overactive 5ht2c causes something called the hpa axis to be overactive .
"
The HPA axis also communicates with several regions of the brain, including the limbic system, which controlsmotivation and mood, with the amygdala, which generates fear in response to danger, and with the hippocampus, which plays an important part in memory formation as well as in mood and motivation.

"


(edit) wait on wiki it says zyprexa is an inverse agonist wtf is that so its actually not an antagonist .so wouldnt agomelatine be a better option even if the antagonism is weak? watever zyprexa worked last time anyway who knows how.

Inverse agonism means that it connects to the receptor the same way a agonist does, but not enough to actually activate the receptor - the end-result ends up being that the body's own natural agonists can't connect to the receptor and the receptors activity decreases. The end-result is the same as an antagonist, it's just that it goes about it in a different way.

oh ok. I wonder why cyproheptadine didnt work for me tho didnt feel anything on that. I tried very high doses too and gave it like a month.thought it reduces the 5ht2c . or even seroquel didnt work which blocks it too I think.

Edited by farshad, 22 September 2017 - 07:22 PM.

[kurdishfella]

I wonder since zyprexa increases progesterone if it has any effect on the 5ht2c since progesterone reduces the activitty on dat  or somth.

 

Also many people report gaining weight on zyprexa Which I think is due to the blocking of 5ht2c , Blocking that seems to increase your weight and activating it makes you lose weight. So it must be potent on that receptor(s).

Edited by farshad, 22 September 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I wonder since zyprexa increases progesterone if it has any effect on the 5ht2c since progesterone reduces the activitty on dat  or somth.

 

Also many people report gaining weight on zyprexa Which I think is due to the blocking of 5ht2c , Blocking that seems to increase your weight and activating it makes you lose weight. So it must be potent on that receptor(s).

 

The weight-gain is also caused by an increase in appetite, it should be noted - the antihistaminergic and anti-dopaminergic properties of Olanzapine both increase the brain's appetite, since it messes with the reward-systems.

The opposite can be seen in stimulants, which increase dopaminergic activity - they make you feel full MUCH faster! There's a reason crack-hoe's and amphetamine-junkies look so thin - they feel NO hunger. In fact, several of the illegal stimulants where previously prescribed for weight-loss with good results, prior to being branded as narcotics.

 

There's even been some development the last few decades to try and create selective stimulants, which don't cause psycho-motor or euphoric effects, only the appetite-suppressing ones - so far, the results have only been so-so, the most recently successful one was alas, like almost all stimulants, found to have problematic cardiovascular side-effects. (it could trigger heart-attacks...)

[kurdishfella]

 

I wonder since zyprexa increases progesterone if it has any effect on the 5ht2c since progesterone reduces the activitty on dat  or somth.

 

Also many people report gaining weight on zyprexa Which I think is due to the blocking of 5ht2c , Blocking that seems to increase your weight and activating it makes you lose weight. So it must be potent on that receptor(s).

 

The weight-gain is also caused by an increase in appetite, it should be noted - the antihistaminergic and anti-dopaminergic properties of Olanzapine both increase the brain's appetite, since it messes with the reward-systems.

The opposite can be seen in stimulants, which increase dopaminergic activity - they make you feel full MUCH faster! There's a reason crack-hoe's and amphetamine-junkies look so thin - they feel NO hunger. In fact, several of the illegal stimulants where previously prescribed for weight-loss with good results, prior to being branded as narcotics.

 

There's even been some development the last few decades to try and create selective stimulants, which don't cause psycho-motor or euphoric effects, only the appetite-suppressing ones - so far, the results have only been so-so, the most recently successful one was alas, like almost all stimulants, found to have problematic cardiovascular side-effects. (it could trigger heart-attacks...)

 

guess that could be a reason too. But I read some reviews that they were on a diet  and counted how much they ate but still gained A lot weight when on zyprexa.

Edited by farshad, 23 September 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[kurdishfella]

wats the difference between Guanfacine   and memantine? is one more potent than the other in terms of decreasing the amygdala activity.

Edited by farshad, 24 September 2017 - 11:44 AM.

[kurdishfella]

is propranolole Potent on the amygdala? I have some .

[Mind_Paralysis]

is propranolole Potent on the amygdala? I have some .

 

It varies. Some say it's life-changing, some say it doesn't do much.

 

Like I said previously though, you have you get the dosage just right... so don't give up on it after just a few tries - the dampening of amygdal signalling is highly dose-dependent, the tests on animals have shown this.

 

I believe it's 40 mg for a 60 kilos human. But start lower - start with 20 mg, and if you don't notice it after two doses, a few hours apart, then you move on to a higher dosage.

[kurdishfella]

I think the reason zyprexa worked for me and diazepam is cus they have an effect on the amygdala they change it or block it and it helps me..... Just blocking my serotonin doesent seem to help.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I think the reason zyprexa worked for me and diazepam is cus they have an effect on the amygdala they change it or block it and it helps me..... Just blocking my serotonin doesent seem to help.

 

Or they work on you because you're AUTISTIC - that's actually a lot more plausible, as there are multiple compounds which decrease amygdal activity, but not every one of those works for everyone.

 

Antipsychotics have been proven to help with emotional distress associated with autism spectrum disorder, and people with autism have been found to have abnormalities in their GABA-systems, which are the root of their increased susceptibility to seizures. (that's why a benzo like diazepam would help)

 

Have you considered to stop looking at your issues as related to anxiety and abnormal amygdal activity, and instead started looking at them as results of your diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome? If so, I recommend you talk to the user Jack_Black on this forum, he has the diagnosis and has poured a great deal of research into it, and into finding things which ever so slightly help with his symptoms.

 

(it should be noted... if the AMYGDALA were the roots of your issues, then you would have BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER  and not autism - but that's not your diagnosis - Borderline is one of the few disorders which seems to be directly correlated to *physical* abnormalities in the amygdala - I suggest you go to the psychiatric wards and try to find someone with Borderline - I'm fairly certain you will be able to tell the difference between the two of your VERY quickly)

 

 

I'm extremely surprised that you saw NO benefit from Memantine btw - since I recall you saying you tried it at HIGH, VERY, VERY HIGH, TO THE POINT OF EXTREME DANGER dosages. Autism is closely connected to the glutamatergic networks - the NMDA-receptors in particular.

 

Have you tried Ketogenic diet btw? It almost sounded like it when you described your diet in the lowering serotonin -thread you posted - ketogenic diet increases production of the body's own NMDA-antagonist, Kynurenic Acid, and some people with Autism have noted that this has an effect on their symptoms. This is logical, since the ultra-strong NMDA-antagonist, NITROmemantine, was noted to actually reverse symptoms in autistic mice.

 

(the drug was sadly abandoned since it's based on nitrate - compounds based on that, like Nitroglycerin, are notorious for causing cancer - here's a small joke regarding the situation: "the drug worked, the rats no longer have autism - too bad they now have BRAIN-cancer instead...!")

[kurdishfella]

no lol I never tried memantine??? I only tried propranolol high dosage. I have ordered some memantine and metergoline (a potent serotonin antagonist) im waiting on them to arrive. Propranolol doesent seem to be working by the way. I take 60mg dont feel anything at all.

[Mind_Paralysis]

no lol I never tried memantine??? I only tried propranolol high dosage. I have ordered some memantine and metergoline (a potent serotonin antagonist) im waiting on them to arrive. Propranolol doesent seem to be working by the way. I take 60mg dont feel anything at all.

 

My apologies, I mixed you up with another poster, I think.

 

Have you tried a LOWER dosage of Propranolol? As low as 20 mg even. Try 50 mg as well (if you can cut and adjust the pills accordingly) The dosing is very, very sensitive.

 

 

[kurdishfella]

well my memantine arrived I tried 20mg felt nothing 1 hour later tried another 40mg been 2 hours now Nothing ... what the HELL?! I feel nothing ... how is that possible. Unless the memantine isnt getting into my system? the memantine I have is liquid and I put the drop in my mouth directly maybe it dries out before it hits my system since its not a lot of liquid if you know what I mean? like  it soaks into my throat and doesent go all the way down? im just trying to find a reason even if it sounds stupid

@

Stinkorninjor

Edited by farshad, 11 October 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[kurdishfella]

might be working now its slowly getting better 

[Mind_Paralysis]

might be working now its slowly getting better 

 

How long it takes for the drug to give positive effects varies a lot - it could take DAYS - don't expect instant effects.

 

 

ALSO... YOU CAN'T USE THAT HIGH OF A DOSE!!

 

People usually begin as low as 2 mg - and get the mother of all brainfogs - becoming confused and forgetful - heavily drugged, really. And you're taking 20 times the dosage... that's not a good starter-point.

 

Please, go back down to 20 mg again - preferably lower even.

 

 

Don't forget that NMDA-antagonists aren't sugar-pills - at high enough of a dosage they cause depersonalisation/derealization and even psychosis - Ketamine for instance, was for a long time the drug-model used to simulate psychosis, and they would then try various drugs on that state, in order to get people out of the psychosis.

 

 

NOW... since you are Aspergers, it's not very likely, admittedly, that you would fall prey to this type of psychosis, since Schizoid and Autistic brains work nearly perfectly IN REVERSE off each other - however, if you do high enough of a dosage, then you too could end up in such a state.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 11 October 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[kurdishfella]

Its working now I feel better I can see and feel my body slowly healing. it took a   long time to kick in like a few hours but it works. I am just dizzy and have a loss off balance right now. Im gonna stay on 20mg and see how things go . I will be going to  outside tommorow and I can test if it helps with social anxiety.. But I definatly feel better. more calm, less depressed, this is like a miracle drug if it keeps getting better and better ...  It feels like my whole body is changing infront of me and I love it.

Edited by farshad, 11 October 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[Deaden]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26353411

[kurdishfella]

day 2 still doing good on memantine. I was outside today and I definatly felt more confident... very good for anxiety.. i hope it just gets better .. i will try to take the memantine sublingual and see if i can lower it to 10mg ..

also can memantine decrease cortisol levels?

Edited by farshad, 13 October 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Deaden]

To the one that down voted my comment: 

[Deaden]

Actually I almost feel bad for linking this

[Finn]

 

 

NOW... since you are Aspergers, it's not very likely, admittedly, that you would fall prey to this type of psychosis, since Schizoid and Autistic brains work nearly perfectly IN REVERSE off each other - however, if you do high enough of a dosage, then you too could end up in such a state.

 

 

 

 

http://www.psychiatr...stinct-subtype/

 

 

Autism and psychosis, evidence for a distinct subtype?

 

Despite the fact that people with an autism spectrum condition (ASD) are more likely than the general population to develop a psychotic disorder, very little is known about this group of patients.

Edited by Finn, 13 October 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

 

NOW... since you are Aspergers, it's not very likely, admittedly, that you would fall prey to this type of psychosis, since Schizoid and Autistic brains work nearly perfectly IN REVERSE off each other - however, if you do high enough of a dosage, then you too could end up in such a state.

 

 

 

 

http://www.psychiatr...stinct-subtype/

 

 

Autism and psychosis, evidence for a distinct subtype?

 

Despite the fact that people with an autism spectrum condition (ASD) are more likely than the general population to develop a psychotic disorder, very little is known about this group of patients.

 

 

Curious...! I have, now that you mention it, seen references to this, from Autists themselves online - how some of them have had psychosis.

 

However, I've always been skeptical about how this would actually work... because the recent biochemical and genetic data does NOT support a close relationship between the two disorders - as you're probably aware, two of the big new theories regarding the inner workings of Schizoidal psychosis are two-fold:

 

1. An increased production of Kynurenic Acid - an NMDA-antagonist which could cause psychosis.

 

2. Clear white-matter abnormalities connected to an increased activity of the enzymes which prohibit synaptic growth - there's no question about it, this is a real feature of schizophrenia.

Then you have the genetic relationship studies which we posted in the Borderline thread - it showed that Schizophrenia and Autism have the LEAST shared known candidate-genes - this strongly supports a huge, huuuuge difference in underlying mechanism.

 

 

Compare that to Autism:

 

1. Decreased levels of kynurenic acid and melatonin, from a faulty Tryptophan-metabolism (this explains why some many autists have disturbed circadian rhytms)

 

2. Evidence indicating synaptic OVERgrowth - i.e their brains create too many unnecessary synapses, causing a mess of a brain.

 

 

But it's hard to argue with the study, and the anecdotal references I've seen in the past, regarding autistic Psychosis. To me, the two most obvious potential possibilities explaining this dichotomy are the following:

 

1. Autistic Psychosis has a different underlying mechanism - it's something else ENTIRELY from Schizophrenic psychosis - much like how Parkinsonian psychosis is different from Schizophrenic - in them, I believe its connected to INTENSE increase of acetacholinergic activity - 5ht3-antagonists are also antipsychotic for them, but the same drugs are NOT antipsychotic for schizophrenics - instead, they seem to help with Negative symptoms...

 

2. The Autists with psychosis aren't really Autists AT ALL - instead, they could be misdiagnosed Schizotypals or Schizoidals - this is an easy mistake to make, since the problem with flat affect and social dysfunctionality are actually shared between both groups.

 

 

What are your own thoughts on the subject? How, and WHY does two brains which have such different disease-mechanisms show some symptomatic overlap?

 

 

EDIT:

 

I should probably have added in my previous post, how the initial rat-studies indicated that the NMDA-antagonist NITROmemantine showed great promise for the treatment of Autism - this is in line with the idea that one of the metabolic abnormalities found within Autism includes a sub-production of the body's own endogenous NMDA-antagonist - Kynurenic Acid.

 

(sadly the drug was shelved, as you're probably aware, because of safety-reasons: Nitrate compounds cause cancer, alas...)

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 13 October 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[Finn]

Then you have the genetic relationship studies which we posted in the Borderline thread - it showed that Schizophrenia and Autism have the LEAST shared known candidate-genes - this strongly supports a huge, huuuuge difference in underlying mechanism.

 

 

 

 

 

Compare that to Autism:

 

1. Decreased levels of kynurenic acid and melatonin, from a faulty Tryptophan-metabolism (this explains why some many autists have disturbed circadian rhytms)

 

2. Evidence indicating synaptic OVERgrowth - i.e their brains create too many unnecessary synapses, causing a mess of a brain.

 

 

 

 

I think Intense World Theory would explain a lot of stuff pretty well, 1. and 2. could rather be symptoms induced by the Intense World experience rather than the original causes.

 

The Intense World Theory – A Unifying Theory of the Neurobiology of Autism

 

https://www.frontier...2010.00224/full

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3010743/

 

 

The Boy Whose Brain Could Unlock Autism

 

https://medium.com/m...sm-70c3d64ff221

 

Edited by Finn, 13 October 2017 - 02:12 PM.

[kurdishfella]

working great for anxiety and depression..

 

I think all my anxiety the chemical imbalance etc are gone I just have the memories left... how long does it take for your memory to change ? like how long will it take for me to get used to this new outlook on life and forget the other stuff that made me anxious due to my chemical imbalance? 

also can I combine memantine with wellbutrin and abilify?

[Mind_Paralysis]

working great for anxiety and depression..

 

I think all my anxiety the chemical imbalance etc are gone I just have the memories left... how long does it take for your memory to change ? like how long will it take for me to get used to this new outlook on life and forget the other stuff that made me anxious due to my chemical imbalance? 

also can I combine memantine with wellbutrin and abilify?

 

Great to hear that you've finally found something which works for you! Congratulations, man! = )

 

Perhaps you could now tell others whom have similar diagnoses to you - Autism, Anxiety and PTSD, to try out Memantine as well? There are others like you out there, and getting info about your experience with Memantine could help them.

 

 

Changing your relationship to traumatic memories will take a lot longer - months, perhaps years - BUT...! Eventually, now that your mind is at ease, your brain will re-encode those memories, and you will experience them more neutrally.

 

If you want to hasten this, then you must go into Psychotherapy, I suggest something a mix of classic psychotherapy where you talk about what's happened to you, along with DBT - a method similar to CBT, but especially useful for traumatic experiences.

 

Now that your emotional response, your amygdal or hippocampal response, is different, then you can challenge these memories in a whole new way - and then reencode them faster, in a supportive environment.

 

This is actually how they plan to use MDMA for the treatment of PTSD - you take the MDMA while talking to your therapist, whom helps guide you through the memories and resolve them, while the MDMA de-dramatizes them for the rest of your brain.

 

 

So, get into counselling for PTSD and emotional trauma, emotional instability, and then you will get rid of your issues MUCH quicker!

 

Otherwise, you have to wait for quite some time...

 

 

BTW - now that you know that Memantine works, you NEED to take steps to make sure you have more of it available! Don't wait until you run out - try and procure some more Memantine - in fact, I suggest launching a campaign aimed at your Dr's, to get it prescribed off-label for your anxiety - that will be the best route to go, from a financial perspective, as well as nearly every other perspective.

 

Oh, and to make sure you've got enough to last you while all of that happens, make sure you get some more from the black markets as well.