77 replies to this topic

[dear mrclock]

tnx anagram. your posts always appreciated

[niner]

I haven't been on this thread in awhile, so I will add that tri methyl amine oxide(TMAO) looks like the spin trap ntBHA, and TMAO is a break down product of trimethyglycine. TMAO protects proteins from urate and is a general protein stabilizer. I would recommend tri methyl glycine.
I am currently trying to figure out about lycopene as a spin trap. it is known that lycopene protects cells from nitrous oxide damage, though there are no images online of what this might look like. theoretically though, when nitric oxide binds to lycopene, it forms a ntBHA chain, so yah.

TMAO is not a friendly molecule. You should check out this thread.

[anagram]

thank you niner for this, its a real shame that I got the idea that TMAO was good off this website. someone needs to sort these topics out before someone gets seriously injured. though this situation highlights the importance of risk reduction when taking supplements, I was taking asprin, melatonin, and broccoli while I was supplementing with TMG which is so deceivingly called called heart healthy.

Asprin, melatonin, and the indole compounds in broccoli all act as mild spin traps though apparently melatonin's metabolites have some proxidant activities.
indole 3 propionic acid is an indole compound which seems to be exactly what everyone on this forum is looking for. I3P apparently has no proxidant effects, boasts mitochondrial complex's (like methylene blue), extends life span, and protects from all sorts of damage. it is also a product of tryptophan ingestion, and is probably part of the tryptophan degredation axis, there protect from quinolic acid damage, a give and take sort of thing.

[dear mrclock]

so TMG is bad for u ?

[anagram]

well, not exactly. TMG's degradation product trimethylamine apparently is not so hot in high amounts. I really dig the way TMG makes me feel so I don't want to get rid of it completely. considering TMG is in beets, its probably not horrible, though beets have loads of other heart healthy compounds, so saying TMG is safe because its from beets is like saying this steel bar can fly because its from a plane.
one thing that I want to use in place of TMG is butyric acid, because that has some good mood stabilizing effects.

[dear mrclock]

nothing i could find on butyric acid as mood stabilizer.

[anagram]

um, do you know what a histone deacytelase inhibitor is?

Edited by anagram, 04 December 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[dear mrclock]

was just checking wiki on butyric acid. from what i saw it might promote longevity by inhibiting the function of histone deacetylase enzymes but i dont understand the mechanism no. ill look into this then, interesting.

[dear mrclock]

also was to ask, where do you buy your butyric acid ? is it powder bulk ?

[anagram]

I unfortunately have no idea.
i found a supplement that says calcium/magnesium butyrate however, I don't know if its good or not.
http://www.amazon.co...ef=pd_sim_hpc_5
there is also a sodium potassium butyrate one, which theoretically is better absorbed.
http://www.amazon.co...ef=pd_sim_hpc_4

[anagram]

I think the reason why Butyric acid is so unused as a supplement is because it looks like GHB, GBL, both date rape drugs.
ill use it even if it smells weird, if course for the life extension(stimulating gene repair), and brain stabilizing properties.

[niner]

ill use it even if it smells weird

It does... at least in the free acid form. The various salts are probably not as bad.

[anagram]

yah, except no one has really bothered to say anything about the supplement online, and I don't want to walk into town with the smell of horrible horrible rotten vomit seeping from my a**s and sweat. The thought disgusts me. Just to offer protection from that nightmare, I think ill take it sublingually, and in a 250mg dose. apparently sodium butyrate causes hyperactylation as well as HDCI. I really don't want to hyperacetylate my histones at the risk of something awful and teratogenic happening to my mitochondria, just low level inhibition is what I want.

here is where I am getting the supplement

http://www.amazon.co...ef=pd_sim_hpc_4

Edited by anagram, 05 December 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[anagram]

erythritol(a common sugar alcohol which you can get anywhere) is also a very good antioxidant, and very effectively captures free radicals

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19632091

it is not metabolized by the body and most is excreted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8457525

its has the antioxidant capabilities of mannitol except it is not metabolized

[dear mrclock]

what effects you notice from Sodium-Potassium Butyrate or is it placebo you think ?

[anagram]

i have decided not to take it, and instead, am just going to buy pure citric acid.
the problem with butyrate and other HDAIs is that they can cause genetic changes. they are known to be teratogenic. im sure that butyrate would be a nice addition to my stack, but I figure that I can get enough acetyl groups from citric acid to supplement my needs.
I doubt sodium butyrate causes that many genetic changes, but I feel that citric acid is cheaper, and will help me get my NADH levels back up(I do a lot of CR).

Edited by anagram, 08 December 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[dear mrclock]

citiric acid is everywhere man. it is the most widely used preservative in various foods, canned goods you name it. it is naturally present everywhere too, in all fruits. dont see point buying it as powder seperated and swallowing it.

[anagram]

If I megadose it, then my mitochondria will have enough energy for enough time to fix any genetic aberrations, and generally fix my body. citric acid is converted to malic acid in the citric acid cycle, so I figure I might as well take citric acid instead of malic acid.

[daouda]

Ive been taking cal/mg and sodium butyrate for while with the goal to heal my gut (I,have dysbiosis, IBS, possibly leaky gut after long intense antibiotherapy which left me with c. diff pseudomembrenous colitis for a while). butyrate is made in your gut by some "good" bacteria when fed soluble fibers... it is also "the preferred fuel of the colonic epithelial cells and also plays a major role in the regulation of cell proliferation and differentiation". sodium butyrate enemas are prescribed for Crohns and other types of colitis.
Many studies on pubmed about this but heres a nice summary http://huntgatherlov...ecrets-butyrate (first paragraphs). also
http://jmm.sgmjourna...t/59/2/141.full
Although butyrate is an HDACi, it certainly isnt significantly teratogenic since anybody with a healthy gut flora is producing it inside his own body (plus its also found in butter...). LOTS of things are HDACi (nicinamide, green tea, curcumin...)
you tend to very quickly attribute extraordinary propeties to any supplement, you read a little about... You should probably take a deep breath and think more instead of posting poorly elaborated thoughts as soon as you've read some study on pubmed on some common or less common substance...

[smithx]

If I megadose it, then my mitochondria will have enough energy for enough time to fix any genetic aberrations, and generally fix my body. citric acid is converted to malic acid in the citric acid cycle, so I figure I might as well take citric acid instead of malic acid.

Are you basing this on some research, or are you speculating?

[anagram]

to answer daoudas comment-

I know that a lot of people tend to feel very hurt when someone posts something negative about a supplement they have been taking.

I just want to say that I was not in anyway saying that butyrates are bad for you, I just don't want to put myself at the risk of developing aberrations
in my DNA from megadosing butyrates.

In your case however, its probably better that you take them as a supplement because of your stomach issue, where you don't get enough butyrates.

oh and by the way, I for one don't support taking nicinamide, or green tea because green tea has lots of fluoride in it, and you shoulden't take a b6 supplement unless you have a deficinecy. Curcumin apparently effects a tumor promoter gene so that was something I checked off my list of things to take a long time ago.

and to answer smithx's comment-

I am taking citric acid based on research that is generally agreed upon by most of the scientific community, thanks for asking, its nice to know someone cares.
in case you don't know about it(most people don't have a clue), here is the wiki page on it - http://en.wikipedia....ric_acid_cycle.
thank me for the free education later.

Edited by anagram, 10 December 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[dear mrclock]

anagram cut it out man. i dont like when you talk bad about popular cheap and easy to get access to supplements that are massively markted all over the media as being good for me. :(

[Kevnzworld]

Anagram wrote :
" Curcumin apparently effects a tumor promoter gene so that was something I checked off my list of things to take a long time ago."

Again, could you please provide some evidence/ study to support your assertions. Otherwise we can't differentiate between fact, speculation and/or misinterpretation .

There IS evidence that curcumin is a tumor inhibitor.
Quote: "Overall our results suggest that curcumin is a potent antiproliferative agent for breast tumor cells and may have potential as an anticancer agent "
http://www.curcuminr...oliferative.pdf

This study identified some of the proapoptotic genes activated by curcumin .
Quote ; " Considering its role in apoptosis, we determined the contribution of ATF3 to the antitumor effect of curcumin. Curcumin-treated MDA-1986 cells showed a rapid, dose-dependent increase in ATF3/mRNA protein "
http://mct.aacrjourn...t/4/2/233.short

Edited by Kevnzworld, 10 December 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[daouda]

to answer daoudas comment-
I know that a lot of people tend to feel very hurt when someone posts something negative about a supplement they have been taking.

Lol. I dont worship "butyrate" that way. My post was an attempt to make you realize you're just writing a lot of BS mixed with some quotes from studies you found on pubmed just to sound authoritative, and are making a LOT of shit up. Jeez you even compared butyrate to GHB (offering to drink some kombucha tea - very high in butyric acid - would be perfect date rape trap then) NiAcinamice (made a typo) is not B6 but B3 ... Your mix of ignorance+lack of intelligence+confidence is scary.. It's people like you that dumb forums like this one down. Reading a few studies off pubmed doesnt make you an scientific authority able to write definitive statements like you keep doing over and over again. Come back down to earth man.
I was truly worried about you being in some kind of mania after your ridiculous threads in the c60 sub forum...
I shared my concern with animal (the resident mania expert) and here is what he answred

my PM

Is this guy slipping into mania?

Hi
Ive seen you brilliantly expose the hypomania/mania of some piracetam addicts (namely isochroma and openstrife) in a couple of threads and I wanted to know your opinion on this one guy, anagram (he's not abusing piracetam though)
Take a look at his posts throughout these 2 threads he started
http://www.longecity...-with-dementia/
http://www.longecity...e-future-ahead/
Its seems to me like he's on a slippery slope... only niner and I have pointed at him the inanity of his ramblings... I beileive he needs a reality check. Or does he?

His reply

He does need a reality check, but primarily because he is a pretentious fool with a superiority complex, not because he is experiencing a manic episode.

He actually reminds me of the member [removed by me], in that he has a limited understanding of the science but that doesn't stop him from stating all his wild speculations as fact; which most other members seem to accept without really questioning. Notice how when Niner makes a well researched refutation of some of his claims, he goes on to recant his previous statement and admits it was formed from a fallacious interpretation of a wikipedia article. He's the kind of individual that in person is utterly clueless, but on the internet tries to present himself as some sort of intellectual. This is a very common behaviour in those people who take potent sympathomimetic stimulants, like amphetamine. In all probability he does, but just hasn't disclosed it.

His posts also contain gross embellishments and some downright fabrications in an effort to attract attention and praise. He refers to it as being 'jokey', but in actuality it's just bullshit.

You need to understand that the majority of what he claims just isn't true, and he knows this, he's doing it purposefully. From his initial posts in both threads, he would be labelled a troll on some forums (to use internet vernacular).

Having experienced multiple forms of mania myself, for extended periods of time, it gives you a certain understanding of the psyche involved and makes it easy to recognise in others. With regards to Anagram, he displays some of the traits, such as arrogance, mild grandiosity and facile presumption; but amphetamines (and other stimulants) will elicit this kind of behaviour. Yet he doesn't truly believe most of the shit he's spouting, it's just something I can recognise from his syntax and phraseology.

He's very insecure though, that's obvious, it's the reason he made the threads in the first place. He also seems to have serious problems articulating himself; he's like an angry teenager trying to make his fantasy of being superior justified by struggling to understand concepts that are beyond him. His puerile conception of social dynamics is a testament to this.

My advice is to just ignore him, he'll likely create more threads desperately seeking attention, but people like him are present on every forum, unfortunately it's the nature of the internet.

P.S Feel free to quote some (or all) of this reply in either of the threads in question. I would like him to know that it's not just you and Niner that are unconvinced by his nonsense.

Im really not into internet arguments, but I wish all these pubmed-skimming self-appointed genius scientists would cut the BS down or stop posting altogether... These guys are diluting the good info into a sea of crap and giving misleading "information" and advices.
Another pathetic example there http://www.longecity..._60#entry520414

anagram cut it out man. i dont like when you talk bad about popular cheap and easy to get access to supplements that are massively markted all over the media as being good for me. :(

I guess this was sarcastic and an approval of anagram's post... Butyrate is "massively mrketed all over the media as being good for me", really?

-------


If you have an interest in "dietary" HDACi here's a GREAT paper (covers more than this, just read the title)
Nature or nurture: Let food be your epigenetic medicine in chronic inflammatory disorders
https://dl.dropbox.c...y disorders.pdf

Edited by daouda, 10 December 2012 - 01:42 AM.

[daouda]

Wow I just went to anagram's profile, clicked "content" then "show posts".... Dude you are litterally inundating this forum with a torrent of self-satisfied pseudo-scientific bullshit, and very fast. I wish some moderator would chime in and tell you to take it easy with all your "brilliant", "genius" (quoting you talking about yourself), contributions.

[Kevnzworld]

Wow I just went to anagram's profile, clicked "content" then "show posts".... Dude you are litterally inundating this forum with a torrent of self-satisfied pseudo-scientific bullshit, and very fast. I wish some moderator would chime in and tell you to take it easy with all your "brilliant", "genius" (quoting you talking about yourself), contributions.

That's a little harsh. I think we should leave it up to the moderators to do the moderating.

[daouda]

That's a little harsh. I think we should leave it up to the moderators to do the moderating.

Have you actually read more of his posts? It's sadly not even a little harsh... And please I'm not trying to "moderate" here but as a forum user/reader I'm just tired of these few posters dumbing the forum down and diluting the good stuff with overly confident scientific-sounding BS. Luckily I have enough experience to spot them out but younger/newer users might not know better and let themselves be mislead by the impressive pseudo-scientific veneer.

[dear mrclock]

guys i read his posts and i find them all interesting enough to stir discussions which is grade a good poster on this forum for my 2 cents. he initiates amazing discussions, arguments and quite well skilled in it. people should try to put their emotions aside and be on same page here and not "cry" what a "bullshit" his responses are. he shouldnt be bothered at all with any warnings or anything, but in fact enouraged to stick around on the forum. i sure hope this place is not THAT STRICT. he has not shown not once a display of trolling in my experience with all his posts. find it quite funny tho how some people here get really emotional

[Adaptogen]

i agree, just be cause you seek longevity doesn't mean you have to be so up tight all the time. if what he is saying upsets you so bad prove him wrong scientifically

isochroma leaving longecity was one of the worst things thats happened to this site. don't make the same mistake twice

[dear mrclock]

thats what i like about this forum compared to others related to supplements and longevety. the mods here are not as uptight and i sure hope it continues this way. variety of opinions and personalities expressed is a great thing for any forum. even trolling is ok if its funny and harmless.