2195 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

Holy shit, danielou, thanks for pointing that out. What a blunder! Corrected protocol below--

 

 

An updated Mito protocol (corrected)

 

The previous protocol can be found at post #1739

 

The update here gives DHM as an option or supplement to GMS. DHM crosses the BBB while stearic acid does not.

 

Background:

 

Previously I posted methods of cycling mitochondrial morphology to clean up defective mtDNA, which eliminated mutations via the PINK1/Parkin QC process. The normal QC process can detect mutated mtDNA genes during fission as all mito genes are critical and thus the mito membrane potential goes to zero if just one is defective. Greatly magnifying fission and fusion with supplements will aid that process. But there is another source of mitochondrial damage that isn’t so easily eliminated — epigenetic damage. Like nDNA, mtDNA also picks up aberrant methylation with age. This methylation degrades ATP production, but the QC process doesn’t catch it unless the problem is addressed at a critical time, like during biogenesis. If a mitochondrion with one loop of methylated mtDNA runs out of enzymes while involved with replication, then membrane potential may dip to zero and it will get labeled for recycling. Thanks to methylation, it won’t have as much enzyme reserves as other mitochondria, so it will be preferentially targeted. Also, biogenesis is the best time to demethylate mtDNA as methyltransferase can’t operate while there is only one strand.

 

Until recently, mtDNA wasn’t even known to have methylation, and researchers are still confused as to why it is there. Some speak of mtDNA hypermethylation like it is bad while normal methylation has some purpose.

 

See, for instance: Hypermethylation of mitochondrial DNA in vascular smooth muscle cells impairs cell contractility

 

I don’t agree. I say all mtDNA methylation is bad. Methylated mtDNA mooches enzymes off other mtDNA, and because they don’t produce as much ATP they don’t produce as much ROS, and thus have a survival advantage as they are less prone to mutation. Eventually the cell will become full of moochers and result in fatigue and many other problems of aging.

 

So I say get rid of them all, mutations and methylation alike.

 

The new protocol:

 

This new procedure is much simplified. It requires only two doses, Mito1 and Mito2, which are alternated on a daily basis.

 

Mito1 (fission)

● NAM+R, 1 g of each

● AKG, 1 g

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

Mito2 (fusion)

● GMS, 1 g, and/or DHM, 2 g

● AKG, 1 g 

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

NAM+R (nicotinamide plus ribose) is a fission promoter, GMS (glycerol monostearate) and DHM (dihydromyricetin) are fusion promoters, AKG (alpha-ketoglutarate) is a demethylase promoter, and PQQ is a biogenesis promoter. All of these are fast acting.

 

A two week experiment using reps to failure and GMS:

 

Warm water was sufficient to dissolve everything, but the PQQ was taken in a capsule to insure that the other ingredients got a slight head start (probably unnecessary).

 

Mito1 and Mito2 were taken on alternating days. Each dose was taken in the evening and reps of dumbbell curls to failure counted first thing in the morning — five or six hours after dosing — using the same arm.

 

My hypothesis was that the number of reps would reflect mito damage. With mito fusion, enzymes are shared, thus ATP production and reps would be maximum. With fission, methylated (or otherwise damaged) mtDNA produce less ATP and reps would be minimum. The difference would reflect average damage, and if the treatment worked, the difference should decline. If all damage was removed, then the difference should go to zero.

 

Which in fact it did. See the plot below. The y-axis shows the reps and % difference, while the x-axis shows days. The curve labeled baseline is without any treatment, and likely reflects the normal intermediate situation with mito morphology in a dynamic state. It is stable at 16 reps. The upper fusion curve is relatively flat and higher than baseline as expected, while the lower fission curve is lower than baseline, but rises to meet the fusion curve after about two weeks, and stays there. Thus the percent difference goes to zero.

 

Results:

 

Improvement in running endurance, reduced hunger, and reduced need for hypertension medication.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 16 August 2022 - 12:29 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

There is little one can do about trolls except ignore them. I've tried reporting them, but the moderators here are loath to do anything. 

 

The moderators are loath to shut down debate simply because someone finds a poster somewhat abrasive or bothersome.

 

And for a troll, he came up with a hell of a good point. The CoA on that Simplesa product is complete nonsense. I'm glad to hear that their yeast and mold count is suitably low, but it says nothing about what's actually in the product.

 

That sort of CoA sets off alarm bells for me. That's a cheap minimal test of the sort that a vendor throws out to placate purchasers that don't really know what they're looking at, but it tells you almost nothing about the product. But the buyer gets that warm and fuzzy feeling that someone has looked at the product and it has passed some sort of inspection.

[Daniel Cooper]

Re post # 2090.

 

The pertinent determination of "rude" isn't yours to make, Turnbuckle. The sole arbiter of that determination is Kelvin, who, for all I know, may consider the link to be a risible, non-offensive, but perhaps somewhat mordant, example of a humorous "visual" apothegm.

 

I would expect exercise improvement from baseline, up to a certain point, in those people that, well, exercise.  Your "improvements" might be explained by a placebo effect--you expect enhanced performance on certain days and, not surprisingly, you get it--you might, subconsciously, be making an extra effort because you know that if your curl reps are increased, for example, that it validates your thesis. If you have proof, or at least can show a highly suggestive nexus, of causation, please provide it. "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc", doesn't cut it.

 

You have used Trume, at times, for your epigenetic testing. Currently their webpage copyright notice at the bottom of the link I gave still reads "© 2020 All rights Reserved" in spite of the fact that I emailed them several months ago informing them that their copyright notice was superannuated. Sloppiness in keeping a website up to date is, for me, a tocsin which might portend sloppiness that could be ramifying into other aspects of their business, including potential sloppiness in adhering to strict laboratory protocols. It is problematical that the correction wasn't made.

 

In post #1775 of "Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics" you state that (at that time, still?) you used simplesa liquid AKG and you provided this link. I went to that link and read the 1-star reviews. After reading the reviews I performed due diligence by doing extensive online research on simplesa and its principals. I came to the ineluctable conclusion that it would be extremely unwise to purchase anything from that company. They are mountebanks who prey, for example, on the hopes of those with ALS.

 

I would be stunned to learn that you had done due diligence and didn't come to the same conclusion about simplesa as I.

 

Kelvin, I find it hard to meet protein demand with just meat. So, I supplement with impact whey protein from myprotein.com. You gotta be careful about getting coupons, checking Amazon, and waiting for sales to get the best prices.

 

Ok AD, let's be honest - to say that a lot of this post is being pedantic is an understatement (copyright notices?).  And you certainly don't skip on the opportunity to use a 25 cent word when a nickel word is perfectly serviceable. 

 

The goal of these forums is not to impress people with your language. We also shouldn't be here with the goal of "winning" a debate. The goal is to get at the truth. To inform ourselves and others. And to learn. While I don't think what you are doing is exactly trolling as many of your points are perfectly legitimate I do think you have turned this into something personal between yourself and Turnbuckle (as he has as well).

 

So knock it off. The both of you.

[Turnbuckle]

Ok AD, let's be honest - to say that a lot of this post is being pedantic is an understatement (copyright notices?).  And you certainly don't skip on the opportunity to use a 25 cent word when a nickel word is perfectly serviceable. 

 

The goal of these forums is not to impress people with your language. We also shouldn't be here with the goal of "winning" a debate. The goal is to get at the truth. To inform ourselves and others. And to learn. While I don't think what you are doing is exactly trolling as many of your points are perfectly legitimate I do think you have turned this into something personal between yourself and Turnbuckle (as he has as well).

 

So knock it off. The both of you.

 

You want me to knock off ignoring him? Give me a break, Cooper. The guy is clearly a troll who lives for argument, regardless of the damage it does to the thread. If you are a moderator, you will have to do better than that. Give him a time out, at least.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 16 August 2022 - 08:46 AM.

[Learner056]

Hi Turnbuckle: 

- Would your below protocol be applicable to reversing hair-greying? I have already started it

- I am in early 40s, physically speaking I am quite healthy with no issues, can eat whatever carbs/fats/extra cals and stay normal weight.  Recently been experiencing some hair-greying and some skin sagging. Since 2020 due to passing of mother, I have been super-super-stressed.  Also since 2020 I started taking these (to improve health): Resveratrol/Quercetin/Luteolin, NMN lower doses (as higher dose depletes too much ATP in my case).  Ironically d-Ribose even a small dose perks me up like a rocket, rapidly increasing ATP. 

- in your protocol, Ribose should also deplete ATP similar to NR/NMN. I cant figure why it behaves the opposite in this case?

- Would your protocol be applicable for hair-greying in particular? (and optionally maybe even for skin)  Can you suggest changes, or if something below will work against each other since I need to integrate your stack with my existing life. 

 

Day 1: Fission: 

NMN + Ribose

Trans-Resveratrol/Quercetin/Luteolin (for some reason I love taking these)

PQQ, B-vitamins

 

Day 2: Fusion

DHM (since I need it to cross BBB)

Ginsenoside (I been taking for a while), Echinacoside/Cistanche (for DRP1 inhibition)

PQQ, B-vitamins, EAAs (to possibly improve skin sag)

 

Day 3: Fission repeat,  Day 4: Fusion repeat. 

 

 

 

 

An updated Mito protocol

 

Edited by Learner056, 18 August 2022 - 02:53 AM.

[boylan]

My BP has been trending high lately. Has anyone had success with using this protocol in lowering their blood pressure?

[lost69]

 

Holy shit, danielou, thanks for pointing that out. What a blunder! Corrected protocol below--

 

 

An updated Mito protocol (corrected)

 

The previous protocol can be found at post #1739

 

The update here gives DHM as an option or supplement to GMS. DHM crosses the BBB while stearic acid does not.

 

Background:

 

Previously I posted methods of cycling mitochondrial morphology to clean up defective mtDNA, which eliminated mutations via the PINK1/Parkin QC process. The normal QC process can detect mutated mtDNA genes during fission as all mito genes are critical and thus the mito membrane potential goes to zero if just one is defective. Greatly magnifying fission and fusion with supplements will aid that process. But there is another source of mitochondrial damage that isn’t so easily eliminated — epigenetic damage. Like nDNA, mtDNA also picks up aberrant methylation with age. This methylation degrades ATP production, but the QC process doesn’t catch it unless the problem is addressed at a critical time, like during biogenesis. If a mitochondrion with one loop of methylated mtDNA runs out of enzymes while involved with replication, then membrane potential may dip to zero and it will get labeled for recycling. Thanks to methylation, it won’t have as much enzyme reserves as other mitochondria, so it will be preferentially targeted. Also, biogenesis is the best time to demethylate mtDNA as methyltransferase can’t operate while there is only one strand.

 

Until recently, mtDNA wasn’t even known to have methylation, and researchers are still confused as to why it is there. Some speak of mtDNA hypermethylation like it is bad while normal methylation has some purpose.

 

See, for instance: Hypermethylation of mitochondrial DNA in vascular smooth muscle cells impairs cell contractility

 

I don’t agree. I say all mtDNA methylation is bad. Methylated mtDNA mooches enzymes off other mtDNA, and because they don’t produce as much ATP they don’t produce as much ROS, and thus have a survival advantage as they are less prone to mutation. Eventually the cell will become full of moochers and result in fatigue and many other problems of aging.

 

So I say get rid of them all, mutations and methylation alike.

 

The new protocol:

 

This new procedure is much simplified. It requires only two doses, Mito1 and Mito2, which are alternated on a daily basis.

 

Mito1 (fission)

● NAM+R, 1 g of each

● AKG, 1 g

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

Mito2 (fusion)

● GMS, 1 g, and/or DHM, 2 g

● AKG, 1 g 

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

NAM+R (nicotinamide plus ribose) is a fission promoter, GMS (glycerol monostearate) and DHM (dihydromyricetin) are fusion promoters, AKG (alpha-ketoglutarate) is a demethylase promoter, and PQQ is a biogenesis promoter. All of these are fast acting.

 

A two week experiment using reps to failure and GMS:

 

Warm water was sufficient to dissolve everything, but the PQQ was taken in a capsule to insure that the other ingredients got a slight head start (probably unnecessary).

 

Mito1 and Mito2 were taken on alternating days. Each dose was taken in the evening and reps of dumbbell curls to failure counted first thing in the morning — five or six hours after dosing — using the same arm.

 

My hypothesis was that the number of reps would reflect mito damage. With mito fusion, enzymes are shared, thus ATP production and reps would be maximum. With fission, methylated (or otherwise damaged) mtDNA produce less ATP and reps would be minimum. The difference would reflect average damage, and if the treatment worked, the difference should decline. If all damage was removed, then the difference should go to zero.

 

Which in fact it did. See the plot below. The y-axis shows the reps and % difference, while the x-axis shows days. The curve labeled baseline is without any treatment, and likely reflects the normal intermediate situation with mito morphology in a dynamic state. It is stable at 16 reps. The upper fusion curve is relatively flat and higher than baseline as expected, while the lower fission curve is lower than baseline, but rises to meet the fusion curve after about two weeks, and stays there. Thus the percent difference goes to zero.

 

Results:

 

Improvement in running endurance, reduced hunger, and reduced need for hypertension medication.

 

 

i have used this one... i had noticed DHM on fission days but i thought it could have been to limit fission in my case having back pain

 

i will restart wihout DHM on fission day

 

thank you

[Kelvin]

Hi Turnbuckle:
- Would your below protocol be applicable to reversing hair-greying? I have already started it
- I am in early 40s, physically speaking I am quite healthy with no issues, can eat whatever carbs/fats/extra cals and stay normal weight. Recently been experiencing some hair-greying and some skin sagging. Since 2020 due to passing of mother, I have been super-super-stressed. Also since 2020 I started taking these (to improve health): Resveratrol/Quercetin/Luteolin, NMN lower doses (as higher dose depletes too much ATP in my case). Ironically d-Ribose even a small dose perks me up like a rocket, rapidly increasing ATP.
-

In my experience the mito protocol does not reverse greying hair.

I used the mito protocol for 3 years and my hair started graying anyway.

I was able to halt and partially reverse (reduced by about 2/3rds) this hair graying only with the C60 protocol. I tried the C60 cycle for the first time 3 years after doing the mito cycle.

Edited by Kelvin, 24 August 2022 - 02:29 AM.

[windowshopper]

Hi All,  thank you for all of the information in these posts, especially Turnbuckle. I am just about to start the new protocol and have had seen some timings of when to take the supplements so that they all kick in around the same time, but could not find them again.  Can you please add timings (if required with the updated version) or are these ok to take all at the same time and will still get the same effect? (on their specify days). 

Also on Fission days, would it be helpful to take silymarin (milk thistle) to support the liver detoxifying any of the by products of mitophagy or is mitophagy all done in house and does not reach the liver as waste product?   thanks in advance

 

The new protocol:

This new procedure is much simplified. It requires only two doses, Mito1 and Mito2, which are alternated on a daily basis.

 

Mito1 (fission)

 

● NAM+R, 1 g of each

 

● AKG, 1 g

 

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

Mito2 (fusion)

 

● GMS, 1 g, and/or DHM, 2 g

 

● AKG, 1 g

 

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

[Turnbuckle]

windowshopper: Take each group of supplements all at the same time, with no additions. No need to space them out, other than taking mito1 and mito2 on alternating days. 

[lost69]

turnbuckle:

hi all, update without dhm on fission days, the back pain is less and less as i go on.now it is like when you stress muscles/nerves too much at the gym on fission days and i recover that on fusion day

 

vision and energy keep improving day after day.i think the back pain is due to always sitting and no exercise or walking since the pandemic period, i should restart swimming everyday by september and probably i will feel much better

 

should i keep this protocol until i feel no difference on fission and fusion days and only then restart stem cells protocol?

 

thank you

[Turnbuckle]

 

should i keep this protocol until i feel no difference on fission and fusion days and only then restart stem cells protocol?

 

 

 

 

Yes. But the easiest way to tell when you are done is by a reps to exhaustion exercise.

[Learner056]

I personally feel quite robust on this protocol.  My youngest Abe (in 40s) whom I started on this has some specific challenges. 

 

a) Abe has to take low dose i.e., therapeutic amphetamine, which I suspect are the causative for the challenges here.  Turnbuckle you also asked in some post on feedback from those taking amps and this protocol.

b) I suspect amps exponentially amplify the effects of Fission plus activating UCP proteins, which raised his intial concern of hair greying (Thank you Kevin for your response on that).  So in his case he has to take very tiny dose Fission and then feels ok.

c) On Fusion doses, they seem fine, and he feels positive effects. 

e) I personally observe that Ribose alone (i.e. without NAM) acts as the opposite of taking the combination? Why would be that, does Ribose alone promote Fusion or maybe block UCPs or something?

[Turnbuckle]

I personally feel quite robust on this protocol.  My youngest Abe (in 40s) whom I started on this has some specific challenges. 

 

a) Abe has to take low dose i.e., therapeutic amphetamine, which I suspect are the causative for the challenges here.  Turnbuckle you also asked in some post on feedback from those taking amps and this protocol.

 

 

I don't recall asking for that specific feedback, but sounds like mixing amphetamine with this protocol might be dangerous.

[Repack Racing]

I have a new question for Turnbuckle, and the community at-large.

 

Turnbuckle has commented that when telomerase activators are added to the protocol, his epigenic age goes up.  I believe he has experienced this on multiple occasions, but don't quote me on that.

 

I also shared a devastating experience I had a while back when stacking epilaton (telo) and humanin (mito) which seemingly aged me about 10 years overnight.  I only took this stack ONE TIME.  I woke up the next day with huge bags under my eyes and my athletic performance declined by about 20% instantly.  Pretty bad for a competitive athlete who has worked for many years to stay as young as possible.  That was over a year ago and I may never be able to recover from it, although I am trying.

 

At any rate, there is no way to know exactly why that occurred.  My "guess" is that there is some sort of signaling conflict when trying to achieve both mito fission/fusion and telomeres at the same time and things go haywire.  It seems to be another indicator that we probably should avoid this.

 

That said - there is pretty good anecdotal and scientific evidence for the importance of lengthening telomeres for health and longevity. This info can be easily found here on Longecity.  I personally felt great after my first cycle of epilaton/thymalin.  However, that was before I started this protocol - I was only taking NMN and C60 at that time.

 

This was a long way to my question. The question for Turnbuckle and anyone who wants to chime in is this:

 

Would it make sense to run through the Mito (and optional SC self renewal) protocol as much as needed and then stop for a couple days before running a strictly telomerase cycle of say epilaton and TA65?  The idea being that we could potentially preserve the benefits achieved through the protocol.

 

[Turnbuckle]

One might use a small amount of telomerase promoter with the fusion part of the protocol, but I advise you to do this very infrequently to minimize the effect on other cell types. Telomerase promoters delay the replacement of TACs and somatic cells, and will result in blocking their replacement by stem cells and an increase in epigenetic age. The telomeric clock is essential to the success of this protocol, and it is thus highly recommended that you don't fuck with it. But if you do, it is not fatal. It might take a year or more, but you can eventually recover what was lost. (I say this after a rueful experience early on.) 

 

Note that all cells have this telomeric clock, but they have no epigenetic clock. Telomere length is a cellular proxy for epigenetic damage, so extending telomeres allows cells to get ever more epigenetically damaged. Epigenetic damage results in dysfunction at the cellular level, which trickles up to the organ level and then to the organism as a whole.

 

SCs are the only cells able to turn back the telomeric clock with an internal source of telomerase (with the exception of germ cells and certain lymphocytes), and they are the only cells able to create an entirely fresh and undamaged epigenetic code. That makes them the Fountain of Youth.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 09 September 2022 - 09:32 PM.

[Kelvin]

Here is my mito fission/fusion protocol -

 

Fission

 

 

750 mgs NMN

300 mgs NRcl (Nicotinamide Riboside Chloride)

1.2 grams AKG

20 mgs PQQ

 

 

Fusion 

 

1 gram Sunflower Lecithin (To prevent rise in blood pressure)

2 grams Dihydromyricetin

50 mgs Sulforaphane

1.2 grams AKG 

20 mgs PQQ

 

 

Every 3 to 4 mitochondrial cycles I take -

 

3 grams of TMG.  TMG replenishes methyl stores.

 

3 grams Arginine.  Arginine provides fuel to newly enhanced mitochondria.

 

300 mgs Ubiquinol.  Ubiquinol feeds healthy mitochondria.

 

200 mgs R-Alpha Lipoic Acid.  R-ALA provides additional fuel to mitochondria and helps clean up free radicals that may have been created from destroying damaged mitochondria.

Edited by Kelvin, 09 September 2022 - 09:55 PM.

[Repack Racing]

 

Here is my mito fission/fusion protocol -

 

Fission

 

 

750 mgs NMN

300 mgs NRcl (Nicotinamide Riboside Chloride)

1.2 grams AKG

20 mgs PQQ

 

 

Fusion 

 

1 gram Sunflower Lecithin (To prevent rise in blood pressure)

2 grams Dihydromyricetin

50 mgs Sulforaphane

1.2 grams AKG 

20 mgs PQQ

 

 

 

Kelvin,

 

Thank you for this detailed and informative post!

 

I see that you have incorporated some of the SC protocol supplements into the fusion.

 

Do you have any tangible evidence that this is working better for you that TB's protocol?  I ask that knowing that tangible evidence is hard to quantify, or even to come by, but any info would be appreciated.
 

[Turnbuckle]

 

Here is my mito fission/fusion protocol -

 

Fission

 

 

750 mgs NMN

300 mgs NRcl (Nicotinamide Riboside Chloride)

1.2 grams AKG

20 mgs PQQ

 

 

 

If you use NR, you should give it four hours to digest (see attached plot), as it has to be digested back into NAM+R to be absorbed. NMN is said to be considerably faster, while nicotinamide is very fast, and cheap besides.

Attached Files

•  NR - NAM.JPG   43.75KB   0 downloads

Edited by Turnbuckle, 10 September 2022 - 04:33 PM.

[Kelvin]

Kelvin,

Thank you for this detailed and informative post!

I see that you have incorporated some of the SC protocol supplements into the fusion.

Do you have any tangible evidence that this is working better for you that TB's protocol? I ask that knowing that tangible evidence is hard to quantify, or even to come by, but any info would be appreciated.

I think I’m having almost exactly the same benefits that the TB mito protocol yields like reduced appetite and weight loss.

The main difference is that I anecdotally believe I am getting more of a cognitive boost than others from swapping GMS with sulforaphane because the latter crosses the BBB while The other does not.

Also I have less problem with fusion supplements raising blood pressure thanks to the sunflower lecithin.

[Kelvin]

If you use NR, you should give it four hours to digest (see attached plot), as it has to be digested back into NAM+R to be absorbed. NMN is said to be considerably faster, while nicotinamide is very fast, and cheap besides.

Thanks for the bioavailibilty information about NR.

I will try taking it 4 hours in advance of the other fission supplements, or I may just switch over completely to NMN.

[Learner056]

I cannot remember (running low on brain cells) if I posted this earlier, what is the connection of:

Glycolysis vs Aerobic Glycolysis vs Oxphos to Fission/Fusion paradigm. 

 

It seems to me that:  Fusion (and by that extension stem cells) increase in glycolytic fuel. (would that be Aerobic or Anaerobic glycolysis?)

It seems to me that: Fission increases in Oxphos fuel. 

 

Can someone say these relationships better?  I assume Kelvin, you will know this ...

Edited by Learner056, 10 September 2022 - 08:58 PM.

[Kelvin]

I cannot remember (running low on brain cells) if I posted this earlier, what is the connection of:
Glycolysis vs Aerobic Glycolysis vs Oxphos to Fission/Fusion paradigm.

It seems to me that: Fusion (and by that extension stem cells) increase in glycolytic fuel. (would that be Aerobic or Anaerobic glycolysis?)
It seems to me that: Fission increases in Oxphos fuel.

Can someone say these relationships better? I assume Kelvin, you will know this ...

I don’t.

[Learner056]

I realize biology is a quarky science, however still: 

Spermidine = Autophagy = Mitophagy = Fission

But on personal experiences: I feel that Spermidine plays with Fusion stack a lot nicer?, which probably I am wrong, but when I search Spermidine (a whole mountain falls on me that I barely can relate anything, let alone learn how Spermidine fits with fission or fusion).  Could someone describe Spermidine in context of fission/fusion (off course for information purposes only).

[rarefried]

This post of potential interest to those having negative reactions to nicotinamide/ nicotinamide plus ribose.  Doing the mito profile using N+R has caused nighttime wakefulness for me:  difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep.  Despite some sleep deprivation I've still found the protocol beneficial and have done it periodically over the last several years.  Substituting apigenin for N+R has fixed the sleep problem, and in fact this modified protocol seems to be something that might improve my sleeping generally.  I've been using 500 mg of a liposomal formulation from which I get a fission 'feel' more intense than from N+R.  I've experimented with this apigenin on its own, and I feel the effects of it for about 48 hours.  I realize that studies have shown conflicting results re the half-life of apigenin, ranging from 12 hours to 90+ hours.  I expect it varies among individuals.  Based on this experience, I've modified the protocol to a three day cycle.  First day Apigenin +AKG + PQQ.  Second, AGK plus PQQ.  Third day AKG, PQQ, DHM.  I've completed three passes.   First pass, day 1 and day 2 felt like the kind of fission days I'm used to after an absence from the protocol, sort of confirming my impression that apigenin still circulating to effect.  Fusion day felt like a fusion day, IE, pleasant release from the fission feeling.  Second and third pass, fission days much better (less relative lift during fusion day) perhaps mitigated by better quality sleep.

[PAMPAGUY]

I used this protocol 4 months ago with success and now doing it again.  I measured success or not just like suggested with arm curls.  This time around my Blood Pressure jumped up a lot.  If I remember, Turnbuckle had warned of this, but could not find his post on the matter.  Any help would be appreciated, as I have had to increase my medication.

[rarefried]

I used this protocol 4 months ago with success and now doing it again.  I measured success or not just like suggested with arm curls.  This time around my Blood Pressure jumped up a lot.  If I remember, Turnbuckle had warned of this, but could not find his post on the matter.  Any help would be appreciated, as I have had to increase my medication.

 

Pampaguy, my bp jumps a bit when I use GMS, or, stearic acid as the fusion agent.  No change in bp so far when using DHM as the sole fusion agent.

[Learner056]

I have a baseline low healthy BP, but noted this unusual rise of BP sometimes (I thought it was with fission) but have not been able to put my fingers upon ... the key question that everyone needs to know is, what is the possible mechanism for this sudden rise of BP?

Edited by Learner056, 27 September 2022 - 09:58 PM.

[Kelvin]

I used this protocol 4 months ago with success and now doing it again. I measured success or not just like suggested with arm curls. This time around my Blood Pressure jumped up a lot. If I remember, Turnbuckle had warned of this, but could not find his post on the matter. Any help would be appreciated, as I have had to increase my medication.

You could add sunflower lecithin to keep blood pressure under control in addition to dropping GMS in favor of just dihydromyricetin or dihydromyricetin with 50 mgs sulforaphane.

Edited by Kelvin, 27 September 2022 - 11:43 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I used this protocol 4 months ago with success and now doing it again.  I measured success or not just like suggested with arm curls.  This time around my Blood Pressure jumped up a lot.  If I remember, Turnbuckle had warned of this, but could not find his post on the matter.  Any help would be appreciated, as I have had to increase my medication.

 

 

The first time I took GMS, it was about 8 grams, and it was frightening the way my BP shot up. If I was ever to kill myself with my experiments, that would have done it. Stearic acid triglycerides will raise my BP as well, but that is so slow the body can adjust to it. So use no more than one gram of GMS, at least initially. And if that is still a problem, switch entirely to DHM. I've taken large amounts of DHM and haven't seen a BP problem. Another reason I use such small amounts is to prevent residual fusion agents from interfering with the fission treatment the next day.