2503 replies to this topic

[QuestforLife]

What research have you done on Astaxanthin, Turnbuckle?

 

Before seeing it in your Fusion stack I knew next to nothing about it, but it appears to be a very interesting substance.

 

Not only is it a powerful antioxidant with wide tissue distribution and localization to the mitochondria, which would be expected to be helpful in a fusion stack, but it also appears to have pro-fission effects when in (and only in) the presence of TGF-B (part of SASP). In a model of pulmonary fibrosis Astaxanthin markedly promoted myofibroblast apoptosis by upregulating the levels of Drp1 and apoptosis-associated genes, including Bcl2 and p53.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26119034

 

Astaxanthin appears to be what has been long sought, but never found - an antioxidant you could conceivably take chronically. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by QuestforLife, 31 October 2018 - 11:23 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

What research have you done on Astaxanthin, Turnbuckle?

 

Before seeing it in your Fusion stack I knew next to nothing about it, but it appears to be a very interesting substance.

 

Not only is it a powerful antioxidant with wide tissue distribution and localization to the mitochondria, which would be expected to be helpful in a fusion stack, but it also appears to have pro-fission effects when in (and only in) the presence of TGF-B (part of SASP). In a model of pulmonary fibrosis Astaxanthin markedly promoted myofibroblast apoptosis by upregulating the levels of Drp1 and apoptosis-associated genes, including Bcl2 and p53.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26119034

 

Astaxanthin appears to be what has been long sought, but never found - an antioxidant you could conceivably take chronically. 

 

 

I gave the rationale in the previous update in post 539. Stem cell proliferation is increased in a dose dependent manner. See--Astaxanthin Improves Stem Cell Potency via an Increase in the Proliferation of Neural Progenitor Cells.

[QuestforLife]

Eating fish is one of a very short list of unambiguously good lifespan factors. Papers like this make you wonder if fish oil (upregulates OP1) is only part of the mechanism of action.

 

On and great paper on Astaxanthin Turnbuckle - and by the way, the mechanism of action (via the PI3K/AKT pathway), is precisely the same pathway I've identified as activating telomerase via mitochondrial fusion and low ROS in my own separate research.

 

(Note, it remains to be seen whether telomerase is increased intrinsically per cell, or whether its rise is a consequence of greater numbers of progenitor cells (that have active telomerase when stimulated)).

 

More and more it is looking likely to me that to rejuvenate an aged human we need periods of stem cell proliferation via fusion and low ROS, and periods of fission with higher ROS and increased differentiation (plus old cell apoptosis).

Edited by QuestforLife, 31 October 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

More and more it is looking likely to me that to rejuvenate an aged human we need periods of stem cell proliferation via fusion and low ROS, and periods of fission with higher ROS and increased differentiation (plus old cell apoptosis).

 

Yep. It's the same with subcellular components like mitochondria as it is with the cells themselves: Create, destroy, repeat. The body does that naturally, but the processes go awry with age, finishing up with an accelerating death spiral.

[QuestforLife]

Yep. It's the same with subcellular components like mitochondria as it is with the cells themselves: Create, destroy, repeat. The body does that naturally, but the processes go awry with age, finishing up with an accelerating death spiral.

 

I guess any homeostatic self regulating system will fail eventually if left to its own devices - even one as robust and long-evolved as our own.

[Turnbuckle]

It is unsure if promotion of fission state by Astaxanthin is cell-type dependent or not. Though, this seems that Astaxanthin may influence fusion or fission states.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26119034

 

Considering that Astaxanthin has a long half life(like a couple of days), wouldn't it affect other supplements' half life? See the below studies about cytochrome p450 effect by Astaxanthin.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11876499

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21414371

 

That's an interesting find. It seems I had it backwards, as astaxanthin might be better for clearance rather than for stem cells.

[Turnbuckle]

An updated experimental protocol, with the following caveats—

 

1. This is a work in progress. The latest protocol can always be found on my profile page.

2. It is intended as a geriatric treatment, not for young people.

3. Avoid alcohol on the same day as the self-renewal part, or you will be sorry.

4. I suggest the self-renewal 3 times a week for a month, and then the clearance, two or three days at a time at intervals for a month or two.

 

 

 

 

Stem cell self-renewal, with C60

This is where stem cell pools are expanded

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10 g (in hot chocolate or brownie)

TUDCA — 500 mg

Liposomal glutathione — 1 g

SAM-e — 200 mg

 

 

Time 3:00 —

Threonine — 10 g

Methionine — 1 g

Liposomal glutathione — 1 g

Butyrate — 600 mg (from sodium butyrate)

C60 — 3 mg (in EVOO or MCT oil)

 

Time 5:00+ —

More threonine if necessary

 

 

Clearance (senolytic +) treatment

This is where senescent cells are cleared out to make room for new stem cells and new somatic cells derived from stem cells. There are many possibilities, including cancer drugs, but here I’m using only supplements that are cheap and readily available. The idea is not only to eliminate senescent cells, but also to eliminate cells that are still dividing but are epigenetically old. The transit amplifying cell layer in the skin is one example of a target for this treatment, as they do most of the dividing, and even though they are not stem cells, they produce telomerase. Thus a telomerase inhibitor is necessary to get at them, and some of the same supplements (many of them flavonoids) act as both telomerase inhibitors and senolytics. Table 3 of this paper is a gold mine of possibilities.

 

My protocol has varied, but the following (taken twice a day for two or three days) seemed to work rather well, though I started out with reduced doses once a day, going two continuous weeks. Presently I use the following on the low end of the ranges shown—

 

Curcumin (phytosome) — 1g

*Quercetin — 1-2 g

*Fisetin — 200 mg -1 g

*Apigenin — 100-200 mg

*Luteolin — 1-2 g

**Astaxanthin — 8 mg (possibly, but not tried yet) 

 

*To enhance absorption, I soaked these in 1 tablespoon MCT oil for an hour, diluted with 1 tablespoon olive oil, then mixed into fruit juice.

 

The previous self-renewal protocol can be found in posts 656 and 539 and a previous clearance/senolytic protocol in post 551. Making stearic acid brownies is described in post 316. I removed the telomerase enhancer from the self-renewal protocol to make it easier to get rid of senescent cells during clearance. The idea is to use telomeric length as a sell by date, thus I don’t want to help epigenetically old cells by dosing them with telomerase enhancers.

 

**I removed Astaxanthin from the stem cell self-renewal as it appears to work against fusion and promote apoptosis. See Graviton's post 666 above. Not clear if it should be added to the clearance part, but the whole thing is open to change.

 

I don’t yet have epigenetic age results after the clearance part of this treatment.

[orion22]

this is prob very out of topic but i mixed the c60 poweder with kokum butter(wich has stearic acid in it ) was thinking maybe one day someone will sell chocolate made with c60 and kokum  butter that will be cool

[Kentavr]

Turnbuckle,

15 Science-Based Fisetin Health Benefits + Natural Sources

https://www.selfhack...tin-1-favorite/

Very many info!!!

[QuestforLife]

That's an interesting find. It seems I had it backwards, as astaxanthin might be better for clearance rather than for stem cells.

Actually Graviton has just quoted the same paper as I did beforehand - and as I pointed out, astaxanthin only upregukates fission in the presence of TGF-B.

So in theory it could be used in BOTH scenarios.

[Rocket]

Turnbuckle: Curious to know if you have seen an increase in LBM since beginning the Stem Cell Protocol. One of the reasons why we lose muscle as we age is the loss of stem cells to replenish muscle mass. Any changes in that regard?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle: Curious to know if you have seen an increase in LBM since beginning the Stem Cell Protocol. One of the reasons why we lose muscle as we age is the loss of stem cells to replenish muscle mass. Any changes in that regard?

 

 

In post 326 I speculated that the protocol could be use without C60 to boost the satellite cell pool. The idea is that NO stimulates satellite cells into activity, while mito fusion would promote self-renewal, so an NO supplement would take the place of C60. I only tried that a few times, and while I have seen more muscle mass, I can't say which version of the protocol caused it. 

 

A Role for Nitric Oxide in Muscle Repair: Nitric Oxide–mediated Activation of Muscle Satellite Cells

 

Muscle satellite cells are quiescent precursors interposed between myofibers and a sheath of external lamina. Although their activation and recruitment to cycle enable muscle repair and adaptation, the activation signal is not known. Evidence is presented that nitric oxide (NO) mediates satellite cell activation, including morphological hypertrophy and decreased adhesion in the fiber-lamina complex. Activation in vivo occurred within 1 min after injury.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...icles/PMC14889/

 

[tolerant]

Following up on my post 555 using the Turnbuckle protocol to potentiate NSI-189 and promote neurogenesis, I took 20 mg NSI daily for 4 days with 3 mg C60-MCT oil 1x/day and 10 gm stearic acid 2x/day. On day 2 I had a slight headache and on days 2 - 4 I experienced feelings of general anxiety, but these side effects were manageable and faded day 5. On day 6 I surprised myself by being able to recall in detail a table I had seen in a quiz 10 hours earlier having 4 columns and 6 rows of choices. I had made no particular effort to remember that table; I was just able to pull up a mental image and read it off with the kind of clarity I had in my 20s. While this experience is n=1 and anecdotal, I do believe that the combination of NSI-189 and Turnbuckle protocol contributed to it.

 

Taking this treatment for 4 days seems to give more benefit than 3 days.

 

Over the last few months I have taken two other treatments that may have helped improve memory:

1) I attempted to dissolve any possible accumulation of amyloid-β by taking 1 g / day HEPPS for a month, as suggested in "Alzheimer's protocol — dissolve & detoxify"

2) I took 2 series of treatments of liposomal trehalose which may have dissolved accumulated of tau protein tangles, as described in "Autophagy Induction with Liposomal Trehalose"

 

How do you reconcile the results of this four-day experiment with the fact that new neurons need two weeks to mature?

[Turnbuckle]

How do you reconcile the results of this four-day experiment with the fact that new neurons need two weeks to mature?

 

 

It's certainly possible, given that new hippocampal neurons become active before they mature, and may be even more active at that stage--

 

The dentate gyrus of the adult hippocampus generates new dentate granule cells (DGCs) capable of information processing (Zhao et al., 2008). Adult neurogenesis is a complex process whereby neural progenitor cells adopt a neuronal fate, migrate, and mature over several weeks. During that period, young DGCs extend their axon and dendrites, establishing an appropriate input/output connectivity within the preexisting network ...  Interestingly, immature DGCs exhibit reduced GABAergic inhibition, high excitability, and a lower threshold for the induction of long-term potentiation ... Such high excitability allows them to spike despite their incipient glutamatergic inputs. Therefore, immature DGCs might participate in information processing before reaching a fully mature stage. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3701257/

 

[lost69]

turnbucle

 

i keep having mild herpes virus reactivation on senolytic protocol i take almost daily before bed (100mg apigenin, 950mg quercetin, ip6 2-3g, 170mg liposomal curcumin, 1g liposomal vitamin c,no fisetin out of stock, no ptero because i had some knees pain.i also take macuguard in the morning which has 10 mg free lutein, 4 mg meso-zeaxanthin & trans-zeaxanthin which may help or interfere and N+R 1g in the evening before swimming)

i m also having medical grade infrared light twice a week which some research says promotes apoptosis

https://www.scienced...022202X15320406

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4533303/

https://www.scienced...001037014601240

 

the interesting part is that i was curious about herpes activation with no pain, just swollen lips and in close but different parts of lips and i found apoptosis or drugs that kill cells like onco drugs activate herpes infection.also the liver cyst getting smaller in weeks is a potent sign something is happening

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3807386/

https://scienceline....2013/10/herpes/

 

so i think this confirms the protocol is very potent indeed and we are on the right path, at least on me

 

turnbuckle

 

i ve been using the senolytic protocol (100mg apigenin, 2-4g ip6, 100mg pterostilbene, 0.6g fisetin, and about once a week 2g quercetin) since sept 22nd for few days a week and since oct 8th almost everyday.no c60, no stemcell renewal protocol, only 1 gdf11 injection this month at 0.025ng.

only used N+R and hydrogen water few times to have more power swimming but slowly during the protocol also power increased and now i need nothing to boost power

as to red/infrared light i kept using it on face, muscles and thyroid/thymus twice a week

 

my liver cyst was 23mm end of august and it is 18mm today (baseline size since about 2011 14-15mm), it was confirmed 100% as a cyst so no worries about the growth that happned exactly when making stemcell renewal protocol with stearic acid, no need of CT scan or frequent US checks.also face skin improved very much especially suppleness of skin and it s brown solid fat appearance on cheeks, i ve been told from a bunch of people it looks like a 30yo skin with no wrinkles now.

 

so i will keep this daily senolytic protocol and recheck cyst by US in 3-4 months, it would be a nice thing to clear it totally

 

i also experienced worsen vision and decreased reaction times

 

good BP values (about 5-8 points lower when adding quercetin) and increasing hrv and rmssd which is now around 30 vs 20-25 and still increasing day by day

 

Edited by lost69, 04 November 2018 - 01:35 PM.

[QuestforLife]

Well killing cells would release hiding viruses. In fact there is evidence cellular senescence may have evolved originally to stop viral infections.

https://www.nature.c...icles/srep37007

Maybe a good idea to take an anti viral between senolytic cycles. Could try garlic extract (allicin).

[Andey]

 

 

i keep having mild herpes virus reactivation 

 

  Have you tried to irradiate it with red light therapy?

 

It should be quite effective

"Recurrent herpes simplex infections: laser therapy as a potential tool

for long-term successful treatment"

http://www.scielo.br...n3/v44n3a29.pdf

Low-level laser here is in the same power ballpark as LEDs - 100mw

[lost69]

Well killing cells would release hiding viruses. In fact there is evidence cellular senescence may have evolved originally to stop viral infections.

https://www.nature.c...icles/srep37007

Maybe a good idea to take an anti viral between senolytic cycles. Could try garlic extract (allicin).

 

thanks but no, me and my sister had this since we can remember and antivirals dont work and weaken immunity (we learn this since babies)...the worst the infection the stronger the immune response to keep it latent for the rest of your life, at least this is our experience

 

the infection is so mild that needs no interventions, you don t even see it, i know it because lips are a little bigger and red than usual

 

also apoptosis is necessary to clear these type of viruses, herpes, hepatitis b, CMV and probably many others viruses of this type suppress apoptosis by all means possible to keep a reservoir of their viral templates in the nucleus or integrated in our dna (cccdna for hbv and something similar probably for herpes virus 1 too), so by apoptosis you achieve 2 goals:

 

virus is detected by immune system and suppressed better.he is not hiding anymore because he knows he may lose his home to hide (i read a research he senses killing of cells in the body and tries to infect new ones)

 

reservoir can be decreased

 

maybe a very strong immune system can clear these life long infections like hbv, hsv 1, CMV by keeping apoptosis active

 

Edited by lost69, 04 November 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[lost69]

  Have you tried to irradiate it with red light therapy?

 

It should be quite effective

"Recurrent herpes simplex infections: laser therapy as a potential tool

for long-term successful treatment"

http://www.scielo.br...n3/v44n3a29.pdf

Low-level laser here is in the same power ballpark as LEDs - 100mw

 

yes i do, i think this combo of IR and senolytics is making latent HSV1 out exposing it to immune system

 

i think it is clearing latent virus infact it is so mild you don t even notice and it also comes out in different part of the lips.

 

normally i get it only when my immune system is suppressed after a bad flu, extremely rare occasion, it happens on other part of the lips and much bigger with pus, pain and scar tissues in the end  lasting about 1 week.the one i m getting now is like a little red lump that clears in 2-3 days i m not sure previous times but maybe it happens after IR combined with senolytics same day

[Rocket]

More likely the immune system is overwhelmed by all the dying cells and removing them, that the herpes virus can overcome the weakened immune system. Viruses are actually fairly fragile and if a virus is in a cell that is dead, the chemicals in the dead and dying cell should kill a virus hiding out inside.

[aribadabar]

on senolytic protocol i take almost daily 

 

Daily for how long?

[lost69]

Daily for how long?

 

i did it on sep 21-22-23 then stopped, again oct 8-9-10, then from oct 14 daily (i only got out of stock for fisetin).i had this small/mild herpes on lips 3 times during this senolytic protocol

 

i did it daily mainly for the liver cyst in fear it could be something else but on 27th it was confirmed as a simple cyst and also reduced 5mm compared to size on aug 28th.i think i ll keep it at least 3-4 times a week to see if the liver cyst can be reduced more or cleared

[tolerant]

I was just reading through the thread and found this:

 

Graviton: Re lecithin, I don't have any preference. While I've used other brands in the past, I presently use NOW brand lecithin granules, which is soy based, dirt cheap, and can be purchased from Amazon, iHerb, and other vendors. It claims to be non-GMO, but that is not important in my opinion. There's a lot of propaganda by the sunflower lecithin manufacturers claiming their lecithin is better, and perhaps it is, but I haven't seen the data. As for using lecithin with just water and stearic acid, I encourage you to try it and report back. 

 

Andey: Other than the brownie or hot chocolate, I don't eat during the protocol, and considering it is only a period of 3-4 hours, that shouldn't be a problem. Red light fasting (often with L-carnitine fumarate) seems to go well with it, and fasting appears to increase the efficiency of stem cell production, at least in some tissues. In post #312 above, Hebbeh linked to the following regarding intestinal cells--

 

 

You say that the C60 protocol goes well with red light fasting, yet in the first post of the red light fasting protocol, you say that using it with C60 is not a good idea. Can you please explain?

 

Also found this:

 

Experiment with satellite cell self-renewal, update 1

 

...

 

Results:

I’m combining this with “red light” fasting along with running, finding definite improvement in stamina, fat loss, and muscle growth, even for upper body. A more youthful appearance very quickly. I’m also using L-carnitine fumarate with running.

 

Suggested use:

Up to 3 days in a row. And while the NO from potassium nitrate appears to be a potent stimulant of satellite cells, it may also suppress the proliferation of neural stem cells, so I would not use it all the time. Brains or brawn, it seems (unless you alternate the nitrate).

 

Here you are again saying that you're combining C60 with red light fasting, but what I want to ask is: what do you mean by "unless you alternate the nitrate"? I would very much like to avoid suppression of proliferation of neural stem cells.

 

Thanks!

[orion22]

Turnbuckle how is you re brain functioning after using this protocol did you take some tests before and after ?

[Tyvek]

Hello

 

So I'm 27 and I have tried this for a few months and it gave me pretty bad and weird effects.

First my skin looks older and worse. I was getting a lot more wrinkles on my face when taking C60, and the skin on my hands and inner arms looks more thin and a bit reddish, and the veins a more thin and a bit blackish like old people get.

I think it's causing problems with epithelial tissues and it might be really dangerous.

I also get a weird thing with the hair on my body, especially my hands.

I get a lot of hair where there was fewer hairs previously like the little fingers, and almost all of them are double hairs, 2 hairs growing at the same spot making them look more dark so it's really weird.

The shape of my skull is also changing a bit, it's actually getting bigger on top and on my forehead.

I also get joints pain in my hands.

I also get herpes impossible to get rid of on my upper lips.

 

I have stopped C60 and things are getter better, but you should be really careful. Effects were even worse when taking NSI-189. I was also taking astragalus and taurine.

[lost69]

you should be careful what can you get at 27yo when there is no aging yet....you are another type of human being for antiaging purposes when so young

 

Hello

 

So I'm 27 and I have tried this for a few months and it gave me pretty bad and weird effects.

First my skin looks older and worse. I was getting a lot more wrinkles on my face when taking C60, and the skin on my hands and inner arms looks more thin and a bit reddish, and the veins a more thin and a bit blackish like old people get.

I think it's causing problems with epithelial tissues and it might be really dangerous.

I also get a weird thing with the hair on my body, especially my hands.

I get a lot of hair where there was fewer hairs previously like the little fingers, and almost all of them are double hairs, 2 hairs growing at the same spot making them look more dark so it's really weird.

The shape of my skull is also changing a bit, it's actually getting bigger on top and on my forehead.

I also get joints pain in my hands.

I also get herpes impossible to get rid of on my upper lips.

 

I have stopped C60 and things are getter better, but you should be really careful. Effects were even worse when taking NSI-189. I was also taking astragalus and taurine.

 

[Turnbuckle]

Hello

 

So I'm 27 and I have tried this for a few months and it gave me pretty bad and weird effects.

 

 

 

When you say you "tried this," what do you mean? Do you try the protocol of this thread (which is intended for people much older than you), or did you try C60 by itself from some internet source? If the latter, then you might want to post your observations on the appropriate thread-- C60 Toxicity Concerns and anecdotal reports

 

Use of C60 is very unwise for young people, in my opinion, and using it without knowing what's going on could deplete your stem cell pools.

[Graviton]

When you say you "tried this," what do you mean? Do you try the protocol of this thread (which is intended for people much older than you), or did you try C60 by itself from some internet source? If the latter, then you might want to post your observations on the appropriate thread-- C60 Toxicity Concerns and anecdotal reports

 

Use of C60 is very unwise for young people, in my opinion, and using it without knowing what's going on could deplete your stem cell pools.

In the sense that you talked, can stem cell self renewal protocol go without C60 for younger individuals? Then, fusion state dominates than fission state for younger individuals?

 

C60 was given in the middle age mouse in the below link, and the result was not positive. This, perhaps, means the effect of C60 in different development group is too early to say something.

This study started the feeding of C60 oo from about 11~12 months for mouse while Baati experiment started feeing rats about around 10 months for rats(not sure if these number or species are right, though).

Two of them are for different species, and development time. It is hard to say something.

 

 

 

• Study of olive oil with С60 effect on lifespan of mice CBA/Ca
  • C60 in olive oil was kindly provided by Fathi Moussa
  • Mice – CBA/Ca, both male and female
  • Start of oral drug treatment - 11-12 months (approximately 40 years for a human).
  • C60 dosage - 3.4 mg/kg, first week - daily, 2-8 weeks - weekly, 5 next months - once every two weeks, total - 25 administrations (or 1,, 78 mg of C60 per course of treatment/per mice).

 

http://longevityalli...=reportyear2015

Edited by Graviton, 06 November 2018 - 10:19 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Hi, thanks a lot for your protocol, I will start doing it, starting today with C60, stearic acid, NAC, Taurine and TUDCA

 

I'm 26 so I don't know if there will be much results, but maybe that's the best time to start it. I will report later if I get noticeable effects from it.

 

About stearic acid, I think the best way is to eat it without anything else, but chew it really well until it is fine dust fully dissolved/suspended in saliva. That way it should be absorbed really well easily.

 

I see that you went ahead with this protocol back in August even though I advised against it. Taking stearic acid by chewing it probably achieved very little, and I also have a question about the source of your C60. Some being sold are worse than useless.

[Graviton]

I see that you went ahead with this protocol back in August even though I advised against it. Taking stearic acid by chewing it probably achieved very little, and I also have a question about the source of your C60. Some being sold are worse than useless.

I heard that you make brownie with stearic acid. How does the taste like? Usually, wouldn't it be plausible to mix stearic acid with lecithin and hot water and dissolve them with some chocolate flavor? just like hot chocolate